Matching Pheonix model to your real life model

[kamtsa]

This was triggered by a Phoenix related thread in another forum.

How do you match the Phoenix virtual model to your real life heli? I noticed for example that with the Phoenix's Trex 450 I have hard time to hover at the same place while I can do it with no problem in real life.

(I am aware of the Phoenix screen that allows to change the model parameters. I am looking for practical advice how to do that. For example what are the main parameters I should look at).

Thanks,

Kam

[Ade_Law]

you can increase the hover stability in the edit model params

Ade

[raylepper]

You'll probably want more expo on aileron and elevator, at least in the beginning. You probably already know that flying the sport model is easier than the 3D model. If you want to tame it down even further, you can edit (and save) a model — lower the pitch and cyclic rates. These parameters are under the Main Rotor tab (I think that's the label). You can also add weight to the model in the main tab. It makes it a lot slower.

In the end, you end up back at the 3D model with the expo way down. It's just practice.;)

[theglennster]

I must admit my my real life T-Rex 450 doesnt behave anywhere as manouverable as the SIM with flybar weights off and full throws. Other helicopters seem far more realistic in Phoenix but the 450 feels totally unreal to me if you see what I mean, almost like something on a games console. I think people who have never flow a 450 would be put off by this behaviour.

I dont tweak the models much I would hope they are accurate as they are but I feel the T-Rex 450 has slipped the net somehow

Cheers
Glenn

[WJackson]

The only factor thats really hard to control is that the real helis behavior will change so much with differences in setup. Headspeed, collective range, cyclic range, etc, etc...

[raylepper]

I deliberately tweak the model to try to make it feel like my 450. Mine is slower than the 3D model, but faster than the sport. I've slowed down the tail piro (on the model) to get closer to the piro rate I've set on my heli. I dunno. I think our individual set ups vary enough that it would be really hard for Phoenix to say, "this is a 3D capable 450 model, end of story." Just my opinion.

[HeliSmith]

Ok well I learned there's a 3D heli and that's a little better. Seems to lack power though. I guess I will tweak with it tomorrow.

Can you download helis from other users?

[HFG]

Yes you can share variants of the helis with other users. If you want a copy of my 450se variant thats a real handful just shoot me a PM (I use this model to get my thumbs to move faster, when i fly the other helis they seem to slow down and get easier to control).

[s0laris]

I agree with Glennester (sp)

The 450se on the Phoenix sim is not anywhere even remotely close to the real thing when it comes to rolling, flipping.

I can roll this thing and flip it on a single point in space endlessly without the helicopter moving laterally..

It is very frsutrating. I set many settings to make it more realistic but no dice..

I have since used Bobs model on the G3.5 as that is at least much better ;(

It sucks cause I really would like to use my dx7 with phoenix. Using the dx7 on G3,5 is too flaky as it loses settings all the time and having a controller connected to another controller just looks silly ;)

[trickybit]

I definitely like the idea of the heli in the sim matching my real heli. I'm about to try some of the elementary things I've learned in Phoenix, on my new 450. I'm hoping for no unpleasant surprises...

I wonder if somebody or a community could devise a step-by-step process to tweak a model so it best-matches a particular heli (and a particular set-up). Time some piros, calibrate some collective pumping, etc etc... a systematic way to set the primary parameters, at least.

I can barely fly, so I'm not going to be thinking about anything like this while I'm fying the real (new) heli, just now... but a recipe to follow over the next sunny spell would really help; now is exactly when I could use a faithful simulation most, and of course I'm not alone on that.

Jim

[s0laris]

Prob best to learn in G3 as phoenix is not realistic for the 450.. will give you false expectations

[HeliSmith]

RealFlight has the Wylie Coyote effect unrealistic hang time such as when you turn the heli sideways with 0 pitch. Also there is a bog bug where the tail will blow out on you in cases where it wouldn't in real life, but I just consider this good training because I have had my tail blow out on me in real life and didn't even flinch.

I find Phoenix to be very near my actually 450, you are right there is a weirdness about it still. I have tweaked mine until I can go to the field and when I come home and try the heli the responses are pretty near on. I have tweaked the 600N to be so much near my 450 that I just fly that. I use Phoenix 450 to practice with a super quicky twitchy heli and I practice with it every few days to sharpen my control skills.

[raylepper]

RealFlight has the Wylie Coyote effect unrealistic hang time such as when you turn the heli sideways with 0 pitch. Also there is a bog bug where the tail will blow out on you in cases where it wouldn't in real life, but I just consider this good training because I have had my tail blow out on me in real life and didn't even flinch.

I find Phoenix to be very near my actually 450, you are right there is a weirdness about it still. I have tweaked mine until I can go to the field and when I come home and try the heli the responses are pretty near on. I have tweaked the 600N to be so much near my 450 that I just fly that. I use Phoenix 450 to practice with a super quicky twitchy heli and I practice with it every few days to sharpen my control skills.

Good calls. I experience these same behaviors (though I thought the tail was all my lousy technique, probably is, actually)

Question: Should we be doing something organized to send feedback to Phoenix? Maybe a poll on things to address in priority? Seem like numbers would count.

[WJackson]

Prob best to learn in G3 as phoenix is not realistic for the 450.. will give you false expectations
:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol
Ah man, dude ya killin' me. Stop it!! I'm gonna split a stitch!!

[kamtsa]

I have tweaked the 600N to be so much near my 450 that I just fly that. I use Phoenix 450 to practice with a super quicky twitchy heli and I practice with it every few days to sharpen my control skills.

HeliSmith, can you share that 600N model with us.

Thanks,

Kam

[s0laris]

:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol:lolol
Ah man, dude ya killin' me. Stop it!! I'm gonna split a stitch!!

?

Why do you say that ?

Seriosuly. I can roll and flip the model without any left stick interaction. It flips and rolls on a center axis without any lateral motion.

That is just too unrealistic.

Someone goes to flip it for real and will see his bird shoot out sideways and then into the ground.

The G3 at least accomodates this much much better.

[WJackson]

?

Why do you say that ?

Seriosuly. I can roll and flip the model without any left stick interaction. It flips and rolls on a center axis without any lateral motion.

That is just too unrealistic.

Someone goes to flip it for real and will see his bird shoot out sideways and then into the ground.

The G3 at least accomodates this much much better.

So what your saying is your real heli is setup with alot of cyclic/cyclic or cyclic/collective interaction and the sim doesnt duplicate this?? This is because it simulates a properly setup heli. G3/3.5 blows chunks in comparison of physics. Every real heli will roll differently with different setups. My 600N rolls so quick that if you try and time collective input for a full deflection roll it will not look pretty, infact will look damn ugly if any negative is applied.

[s0laris]

No What I am saying is on my real helis I simply cannot flip it on a dime without having pitch at 0 degrees while vertical or it will just fly sideways or up and down depending on roll/flip

The 600 Model DOES do it correct on the phoenix and I am glad someone posted that it flys more like the 450.


the 450 doesnt at all. there is no helicopter I have ever seen where you can apply positive or negative pitch and still spin it around like its an orb in the sky.


If my heli is setup wrong then so be it.. but Then all my friends also must be wrong.

The 600 DOES work correct. I will use that from now on and just adjust it so its a bit more sensative like a 400 series is.

[HFG]

My 450se does stationary flips on its own axis, its pretty common to have your heli spin on its own axis.

[trickybit]

The 600 DOES work correct. I will use that from now on and just adjust it so its a bit more sensative like a 400 series is.

So what did you do to tweak the 600?

Since I don't do 3D in "real life," the difference between the sim and my 450 is that the collective on my 450 is a lot quicker. I put a steep pitch curve into my radio, and it helped a little, and I intend to try adding more pitch range in the sim model.

Does speeding up the head help? Anyway, what have you tried?

Thanks,
Jim