New Flybarless System

[Skookum]

Ludde> soo isnt hiller decay almost the same as hiller gain?

Nope. Hiller gain adjusts stability: how hard the gyro tries to hold the heli level. You want it as high as possible.

Decay softens the hiller gain effect, makes it forgive sudden jolts and damps oscillation. As a side effect, decay makes the gyro less able to trim out the swash against small errors or wind. High decay is mostly to allow for repeated hard 3D maneuvers, like a bunch of tick tocks in a row. The default was changed to 100% only to make take offs safer for beginners at flybarless.

[JKos]

Ludde,
The flybar is always a power soak and never adds any power to the system. A hovering flybarless heli definitely requires less power in hover than a flybared heli. A flybarless heli requires less power in all regimes of flight. That is extremely easy to tell on electrics with our data collection systems. It is also easy to tell because flight times go up after conversion to flybarless even while performing the same manner of flight.

> the 10-20% is just dreams..

No, some people have seen just that.

- John

[SpeedVision]

Not that much more power with flybarless

If you want 20% more power buy a bigger motor... :-)

Lower overall mass, less rotating mass, more efficient execution of inputs and longer run times are a few of the benefits I have noticed.

I'm using about 300 mAh less per flight with the same flight times as flybared... Battery and motor temps are also down some.

Aside from the cost of the gyro (which will be offset over time), there are no disadvantages to going flybarless, in my opinion.


Re the "tail drag compensation", if people want to be able to adjust that, the fields could be exposed in the setup software.

Yes, please.

[Danish Heliflyer]

Okay.

Here is my setup with the flybarless system SK360. I tryed different setups, and this is the most optimum, with no hickups.

Pitch +/- 13
Swash +/- 10

During tumpling i can kill the motor, so dont give full elev or ail stick for a long time. It can do a flip less than a halv secund 360 degre.

Also this is with the old firmware version 1.0
I will later try out the new version, and se what parameters i need to get the best 3D flight condition..

God luck.

[lesodell]

Danish Heliflyer thanks for posting that i think it will help a lot and i wish someone would post one with a setup for scale flying \ just hovering slow flying , would be great. thanks

[seattle_helo]

Here is my setup for a five blade scale test bed. I'm trying for the best scale stability and smoothest flight that can possibly be obtained. I've got it dialed in pretty good right now with these values- flies beautifully.

nick

[SpeedVision]

Here is my setup for a five blade scale test bed. I'm trying for the best scale stability and smoothest flight that can possibly be obtained. I've got it dialed in pretty good right now with these values- flies beautifully.

nick

Wow. Schweet.

Where did you get the head? Is the swash part of the head kit?

How tough was it to get the head set up mechanically?

What type of power system are you using?

Finally, flight times?

thanks.

[seattle_helo]

The head kit is from DeeTee Enterprises. It does come with the swash and it's very well done- drilled nice and precisely with good, stainless balls. The whole kit is fantastic, except the follower or swash driver. It is too wide to fit well in between the pushrods on a five blade setup. I flew it like that a few times, but it never felt right and I think it was due to a pushrod binding slightly on the follower, especially with any cyclic inputs, as well as flex from the plastic parts of the follower causing a slight phase change while in the air. I'm not 100% sure. In the end, I solved it by getting a Lightning Heli head and cannibalizing it's follower, which is quite nice and designed to fit in such a narrow space. I also replaced the plastic grips with metal ones. So it's sort of a hybrid head system. Anyone want to buy a LH Penta-Head without a follower for cheap? :D

The mechanical setup was really easy. (I think it's easier to set up a multi than a flybar, actually) Because we can adjust the phasing electronically with the SK360, you set up the head with the pushrods perfectly vertical and lock down the follower in the middle of its range. Then adjust the phasing in software until it behaves as it should, i.e. no pitch movement whatsoever during elevator commands with the blade over the tail boom. By using calipers, I made each push rod very close to the same length and the tracking was spot on. It was a nice surprise. The head is set up right now with a pitch curve of -2 to +10 on collective, although the total pitch available to the SK360 is +/-10. I did have to adjust my overall pitch curves quite a bit from what they were in a two blade, flybar setup.

I have not changed anything for power yet. I'm using the same components that I had on there when it was flybared: TP2100 3-cell LiPo, a Jazz 40-6-18 ESC and Align 430L motor with 11T pinion. I'm sure it's not running as efficiently as it could. The motor is pretty warm after a flight, which I've been keeping to 6.5 minutes (down from 10 with a fly bar setup) until I know how the batteries are handling it. Based on what I'm putting back into each batt, I could probably go to 7 minutes flights with this setup. I'm running in governor mode which I think is important for these multi blade setups. It's certainly nice to have one less variable with the head speed. My throttle curves are 50 all the way across. Not sure what my actual head speed is. My guess is around 1900 to 2000. I also have no idea how many amps I'm drawing. I've been too lazy and I'm just trying to enjoy it a little for now.

I'm surprised how quiet the heli is now. It is significantly quieter then when it was flybared. But it sounds cool for sure.

[lesodell]

i wonder how well your setting would work with a 2 blade head ?

[SpeedVision]

i wonder how well your setting would work with a 2 blade head ?

If I set my hillier to 80, I think my Mini Titan would do involuntary piro flips.;)

Phase angle is probably unique to his setup as well.

.

So is it safe to say that the path of least resistence would be to just buy the Lightening Heli setup? Thanks for your detailed overview!!!

Also, who did you buy the Lightening Heli head from? I see they offer a 2 bladed unit as well, but Helidirect doesn't carry it...yet.

[seattle_helo]

I arrived at that 80% hiller gain value over many flights. It started out much lower but I would slightly increase it between flights and after discussing it with Art I think I'm going to leave it alone where it is now. The heli is quite stable with it at 80%.

In general, I think some of the more important things for scale use of the SK360 would be:

- keep swash mixing percentages tame, i.e. 60% or less
- keep the 2.0 deadband (or maybe even slightly more)
- lower your control rates (110 to 140 or so) and/or use expo in your transmitter (I'm running about 20% expo)
- slowly tweak your hiller gain upwards until it's nice and high

Art has been extremely helpful in getting me up to speed on all of this. I'm grateful for his help.

I picked up my LH head from a place called flyhelirus.com. It would be the easiest way to get a small multi into the air quickly, but be warned that the head and swash do need some work beforehand, even though it comes 'pre-assembled'. You'll need to remove and re-torque most/all of the fasteners to make sure things turn free and also add Loctite as needed. Some people have had issues with the fit of the head on the mainshaft and have had to modify it. Also, the ball ends seem especially weak/brittle- so at a minimum be sure to check each one carefully and, if it were me, I would change them over to Align parts.

nick

[WhirlingBladesOfDeath]

Does anyone here have the tools, time, and desire to make a custom aluminum piece for my head? I've tried to make it out of plastic, but just can't get it right, plus I'm a little leery of it failing or cracking. I would like something similar to this, used to keep the main blade linkages in phase.
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46136&d=1209019505
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46137&d=1209019505

If you're interested in helping, you can PM me and I'll try to give you all the exact dimensions, and we can discuss what you would want for payment. :)

TIA!
Jason

[Hoverup]

Contact my buddy Mark at www.MJPCarbon.com pozzuoli@optonline.net He can make you the part from carbon fiber. Tell him Boyd sent you.

[jyheli]

coming soon http://www.kasama.com/

[WhirlingBladesOfDeath]

Ooooohhhh! How soon!?!

Hoverup, email sent, thanks!

[pinchio]

Just like to share a video of a new flybarless system that I have been testing, designed and developed by a friend of mine. It is a single unit 2-axis gyro with a PC interface for fine tuning, as well as tuning pods for fast tuning at the field. So far we have tested it in a Mini Titan, Trex 450, & Logo 500, and are very happy with the results. The system and user interface is very easy to understand and program, which is one of the main goal when designing.

More info and videos to come :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URlVXWQ87Es

Just added http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-n0XJ9fmF8

Alvin
Where is the data that shows crash ruggedness? $300 US is a lot to pay for something without knowing what the crash research says!

Anyone else agree?

[SpeedVision]

Anyone else agree?

At 300+ bucks, I don't agree with you. Couple reasons:

1. I rarely rely on claims I can't prove. (Mobil 1 being one of my exceptions)

2. Honorable businesses like Skookum Robotics have to rely on their reputation to gain market share. If the product doesn't perform, then people will vote with their pocket books.

3. At this price point our expectations need to be "in check".

4. At 300 bucks, I'm flybarless. At 700+ I would continue to put up with that pesky mechanical gyro called a flybar.

5. I did sneak a peak inside my warranty return unit and build quality looked impressive.

6. I stopped worrying about the money a long time ago. This hobby, to some extent, is like boating...very expensive but lots of fun between payments...

7. I've already had 300 bucks worth of fun with my SK360, every flight from today forward is FREE!!!:rolling

[Deron Douglas]

Here is my setup for a five blade scale test bed. I'm trying for the best scale stability and smoothest flight that can possibly be obtained. I've got it dialed in pretty good right now with these values- flies beautifully.

nick


Thanks Nick,
Question: Shouldn't the Disable Gain Dials be checked? Otherwise won't the Gain Dials override any settings on the software? I prefer to set the hiller/bell settings from the software. I haven't touched the dial at all.

Also, what head are you running?

Thanks.

[JC]

... Also, what head are you running?

Thanks.He describes it a few posts down (in post 433). ;)

[seattle_helo]

Deron, I am using the gain dials as I like the ability to make small adjustments in between flights by just tweaking the dial a slight amount. I don't bring a computer to the field.

It took me a few times reading the manual to understand this (as well as some clarification from Art) but when the gain dials on the device are active, the software gain values can be used to set the ratio of gain between elevator and aileron. So, if we look at the bell gain software values in my screen grab, for example, they are both the same for elevator and aileron and hence it's 1:1.

The more I fly this thing the more I love it. The technology works and it works great. I'm still getting used to a few differences, though. Mostly the reduced tail authority (to be fixed soon by changing the gearing) and also how much differently the heli enters and handles 'settling with power' situations. I think having five blades creates quite a bit more turbulence and so it's harder to get out of the settling and it's also easier to get into it. At least, it seems that way.

Are you running a multi blade, Deron?

nick

[Deron Douglas]

Hi Nick,
Thanks... I think I understand it. But I'll need to fiddle with it once I have it going. It's not complete yet. I have all the parts, but not the time to put it together and get it in the air.

Yes, I have the five blade HAC rotor head. It's almost like the lightening, but I think it's a little "stockier". As I said, I haven't completed it yet, so it's not in the air. Should have it done in a few weeks. I also have a proto-type 3 blade tail so I'm hoping that helps with the tail authority.

Where do you have your physical dials set?

I'll use your settlings as starting points. Then adjust from there.

Thanks.

[seattle_helo]

Right now my Bell dial is at 30 and the Hiller dial is at 80. I don't remember where they started out exactly from the factory but the Hiller was originally much lower. I adjusted it the most, compared to the Bell, to achieve very stable hovers and forward flight.

Hope you get yours in the air soon. Will be interesting to hear what you think of the whole system.

[Skookum]

Hi All,

The second firmware update is up on the support page of the website, at:
http://www.skookumrobotics.com/support/

Changes include:
* You can now tune the tail drag compensation yourself
* Tail comp is applied in a slightly different way to eliminate the gentle back-drift seen with 100% hiller decay
* Further improvement in vibration resistance, espec from tail vibration.
* Suppressed the cyclic-stick-off-center-at-init alarm while in setup mode, because it was too annoying. It's still active in flight mode.

Maxing out vib resistance cost a reduction of the digital servo frame rate to 125 Hz (was 140), but this slight drop should cause zero performance loss for a cyclic gyro, because even at 3000rpm the blades only go around at 50Hz.

[chichisport]

Firmware 1.2 take care of some ocassional back elev kick I was getting in my Maxir microheli. Now I´m ready to mount it to the Laheli Sniper (440-470mm blades).

[SpeedVision]

Hi All,

The second firmware update is up on the support page of the website, at:
http://www.skookumrobotics.com/support/

Changes include:
* You can now tune the tail drag compensation yourself
* Tail comp is applied in a slightly different way to eliminate the gentle back-drift seen with 100% hiller decay
* Further improvement in vibration resistance, espec from tail vibration.
* Suppressed the cyclic-stick-off-center-at-init alarm while in setup mode, because it was too annoying. It's still active in flight mode.

Maxing out vib resistance cost a reduction of the digital servo frame rate to 125 Hz (was 140), but this slight drop should cause zero performance loss for a cyclic gyro, because even at 3000rpm the blades only go around at 50Hz.

Super. Thanks for the support.

Can you, or someone, gve us a little overview of Tail Drag Comp...

Thanks.