New Flybarless System

[Big Fil]

Well it's wait and see the performance for me and nothing to do with roadie elitism. Bottom line is if the cheaper system performs up to par wtih the V-bar than my logo will sport it. If not then i'll still go with a Vbar.

[BruceW]

Well it's wait and see the performance for me and nothing to do with roadie elitism. Bottom line is if the cheaper system performs up to par wtih the V-bar than my logo will sport it. If not then i'll still go with a Vbar.

Hey, I ride Shimano.:YeaBaby: I was only saying for Bob to do a review of a SK-360 on a Logo given to him by Mikado might be kinda odd when they promote V-bar. I personally wouldn't mind going the cheaper route plus I could keep using my Spartan DS760.

[EricW]

Must have something to do with that silly supply / demand thing. You know...what they claim is making gas prices so high?

A flybarless head is made out of the same prefabricated piece of aluminium they bought to machine the conventional one, they only have to press some buttons to change the milling program.
Polishing and (not)assembling it even takes less work.
And there are less milled/polished parts to make...so tell me why it's more expensive than a conventional head...
Oil??

Eric

[SpeedVision]

It's here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Build quality looks very good, instructions are in book form and auxiliary cables are high quality. Weight is as promised at just over 19 grams with 7" of cable.

My Mini Titan is about 75% converted using the stock plastic parts. I think the SK will fit inside the back of the plastic frame, but it will be very tight...

Wife is giving me the evil eye, so progress might not be as quick as I'd like... :-)

Any build tips or suggestions are welcomed. Alvin, are you out there...?

[spork]

so tell me why it's more expensive than a conventional head...

Here in the U.S. we have a perfect system. If you think there's too much profit in this product you can start making and selling them. Then you too can be filthy rich like everyone else in the R/C heli business. :roll:

[BruceW]

A flybarless head is made out of the same prefabricated piece of aluminium they bought to machine the conventional one, they only have to press some buttons to change the milling program.
Polishing and (not)assembling it even takes less work.
And there are less milled/polished parts to make...so tell me why it's more expensive than a conventional head...
Oil??

Eric

Yep, I'm kind of stumped on the high price. Take a look at the number of parts in this picture - I don't see $200 USD there. This is an older picture and doesn't show the new swash driver but I think there may be even less parts in the upgraded conversion kit.


http://file.espritmodel.com/heli/mikado/mik4053.jpg

BTW - If I got a Pinarello frame I would definitely put Campy on it :YeaBaby:

[forjer]

A flybarless head is made out of the same prefabricated piece of aluminium they bought to machine the conventional one, they only have to press some buttons to change the milling program.
Polishing and (not)assembling it even takes less work.
And there are less milled/polished parts to make...so tell me why it's more expensive than a conventional head...
Oil??

Eric
Yes...gas is high because oil is high because of supposed supply versus demand and "scares" of supply diminishing due to "possible" situations. Politics suck!

As far as the cost...if a component is different in any way whether it be material, machining, finish, etc, it is considered a different part completely. Each part has its own costs determined by material costs, setup time, machine time, finishing, plating, etc. If a blade grip has just one differently sized feature or just a different color than another, it'll have a completely different part number and cost even though it may look similar. Lot size will also considerably reduce part cost. Since it's new, they probably don't run 10,000 at a time which is the best way to reduce cost. Some companies / products also incorporate R&D time in the cost as well.

Where I work, a simple custom pulley flange can cost a company $50 to make at small quantity. Bump up the quantity to say 1000 pieces and the part will cost more like $5 to make.

That said, they may add a "cool factor" cost in there too but I hope not.

[avatar71]

to get back to the analogy...

campy has always largely about status and bling. especially the past few years. they still used square taper bb's where the rest of the cycling industry went to a better design... the splined bb.

I would put up a cf fsa crank against a campy record crank any day.

Now, I dont think that they are bad but, to put italian parts on an italian frame just because they are of the same "lineage" is just plan silly.

My point, do what ever combo makes you happy. I am sure the german in the mikado or the "whoever" in the "whatever" will make no difference if the product is good.

[SpeedVision]

to get back to the analogy...

campy has always largely about status and bling. especially the past few years. they still used square taper bb's where the rest of the cycling industry went to a better design... the splined bb.

I would put up a cf fsa crank against a campy record crank any day.

Now, I dont think that they are bad but, to put italian parts on an italian frame just because they are of the same "lineage" is just plan silly.

My point, do what ever combo makes you happy. I am sure the german in the mikado or the "whoever" in the "whatever" will make no difference if the product is good.

Ok Gent's, can we stick to the true focus of this thread... Thanks!!!

You guys probably babbled right past my post about receiving my SK-360!! :-)

[EricW]

Last thing i say about it,
@Spork
We have the exact same system over here, we design and Asia produces.
I'm not saying they are getting filthy rich of it, you did.
I even didn't say it's unfair, It's just not logical, that's all.
I have a nice job :), no need to start a new career...

I think this flybarless system looks like a great product.
And a great boost for our hobby.

Eric

[avatar71]

yeah, excuse my last post. I have been home sick with the flu for 3 days...

[spork]

I'm not saying they are getting filthy rich of it, you did.

It seems you suggested they are charging way too much for the part. I simply suggested you make the free market work by producing a competitive part at a better price. Everyone wins (except the guy that's charging "too much" for the original part).

I even didn't say it's unfair, It's just not logical, that's all.

What's logical is to charge what it's worth to the consumer - not what it costs to produce. Price and cost are not related. The only thing that causes such a relation over time is the competition of the free market.

[Skaross]

Well my SK360 is claiming it is shipped and on its way to the UK... I am doing a Logo 500 3D which I refused to pay Eu V-Bar prices for... it was going to be the CSM route, but this is both cheaper and a single unit, rather than 3.

The Logo head arrived today (thanks to RealRaptors for uber-fast delivery) so if the unit arrives this week, I'll have it in the air this weekend coming.

My Logo is called Posh on my DX7 because it had every bit of expense I could afford fitted when I built it, but even I wouldn't stretch to a V-Stabi just because it was the right badge for the model :)

Kev

[JC]

Boy I hope THIS thread doesn't go south.

[BruceW]

Well my SK360 is claiming it is shipped and on its way to the UK... I am doing a Logo 500 3D which I refused to pay Eu V-Bar prices for... it was going to be the CSM route, but this is both cheaper and a single unit, rather than 3.

The Logo head arrived today (thanks to RealRaptors for uber-fast delivery) so if the unit arrives this week, I'll have it in the air this weekend coming.

My Logo is called Posh on my DX7 because it had every bit of expense I could afford fitted when I built it, but even I wouldn't stretch to a V-Stabi just because it was the right badge for the model :)

Kev

Please post your results (and even pictures if you can). I'll be watching closely since I'd like to upgrade my Logo500 this summer.

Bruce

[forjer]

...What's logical is to charge what it's worth to the consumer - not what it costs to produce. Price and cost are not related...
Hey, maybe that's why gas / oil is so expensive.

[mnwizard]

What's logical is to charge what it's worth to the consumer - not what it costs to produce. Price and cost are not related. The only thing that causes such a relation over time is the competition of the free market.

Very true. The actual cost of the item is usually considered the lowest possible selling price and has little to do with the actual retail price which is very much based on "what will they pay for this?".

[spork]

Hey, maybe that's why gas / oil is so expensive.

Oil and gas are expensive, and over the very forseeable future will be getting MUCH more expensive. For now we consumers have shown the industry that it's a price-insensitive commodity. We do that in two ways... by not buying less when the price goes up, and by not shopping for the absolute cheapest gas we can find. As long as we are willing to pay an extra .05/gallon across the street, both companies will continue to increase prices.

Personally, I'm OK with that, because the more gradually this pain comes on, the less severe it will be as we cross the Hubbert Peak. I just hope the increasing fuel prices make alternative fuels viable. If not we'll be screwed like you've never seen before.

But I digress. I don't mean to make this into a fuel/price thread. I'm following the thread for the same reason as everyone else - I really like the idea of this new flybarless system, and I'm eager to read the news.

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Anyone tried it yet?!?!?!?

[george0079]

Got mine today. Got it installed this evening. I'll be trying it out in the morning. I set it with +/-9 degree of cyclic deflection, and +/-13 degrees of pitch. I figured that these would be good starting numbers.

[forjer]

Got mine today. Got it installed this evening. I'll be trying it out in the morning. I set it with +/-9 degree of cyclic deflection, and +/-13 degrees of pitch. I figured that these would be good starting numbers.
Got pics of it installed before you maiden it?

[fireup]

I dunno guys... I am thinking my Logo500 first! Or maybe the Trex500.....
I will show how to mod the head using Fireup's method. DAMN EASY....

Bob

We can try all three and compare it with my VStabi setup. I still have this head that we can try for the 450. I didn't have much luck with it on the VStabi.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=3746

[skydude]

Ok Gent's, can we stick to the true focus of this thread... Thanks!!!

You guys probably babbled right past my post about receiving my SK-360!! :-)

They did.

So howzit?

Evil eye from the wife? I think mine will consider killing me. Wazzer, I don't think she'll buy that the flybar is holding me back. She keeps reminding me about taxes. TAXES!

--

[alvinchai]

We can try all three and compare it with my VStabi setup. I still have this head that we can try for the 450. I didn't have much luck with it on the VStabi.

I did not have much success using the Kasama head either. I think the head is too "stiff" for it to work well. So far the best setup I've tried for the 450 is the mini titan stock plastic head, using the reduction arm. It may look less tidy, but it flies the best.

[SpeedVision]

Anyone tried it yet?!?!?!?

Getting dangerously close to throwing the canopy on and giving it a flight/crash test...:YeaBaby:

1. Couple things are throwing me off about the setup. I'm attempting to get everything setup on on my Mini Titan with reduction arms as Alvin has suggested. Using the swash menu in the setup screen doesn't seem to give me as much control over collective and cyclic as I would have anticipated with the reduction arms. In other words, I am getting too much pitch in all cases and really have to move the swash percentages quite low to see any noticable difference. Like sub 20% which seems too low.... Is that correct or am I over thinking this...

2. What does seem to work (instead of decreasing swash menu) is increasing the travel percentage for the receiver in the setup software. By doing this the stick reaches 100% throw, but only 65% of the throw is sent to the servos, thus reducing the full pitch to the suggested +- 8 degrees for cyclic and +- 11 degrees for pitch. This will require lots of expo in the radio to keep the sticks from feeling mushy...

What am I missing regarding setup... I don't want to lower the swash percentages too much, but adjusting the stick travel ratio seems to be not preferred as well!!!!

3. Also physical swash movement is throwing me off as well. The swash tilts forward/backward dramatically for the full pitch range (left stick up and down), but tilts maybe 25% of the full range for elevator up/down. The software shows everything is moving correctly, and maybe it is, it's just way different than I am used to and I want to make sure all is well before I spin up...

Honestly, the manual is pretty good, but there is just a lot of "newness" associated with the understanding of this whole concept that is going to take a good FAQ forum discussion to resolve on any large scale.

Any suggestions or clarifications regarding the above issues would be much appreciated!!!