New Flybarless System

[fireup]

Do you have CCPM setup on your Tx for NORM and not 120? I think it will be less work if you use NORM and have the unit do all the mixing.

Everthing should work as if it has a flybar (if your running leading edge control). The main difference is the swash will tilt in opposite direction as you tilt the body of the heli. Also I'm not sure how the SK360 works but the swash would seem like it does not come back to center when you move the stick, but over time it does slowly comes back to center (this is normal).

[SpeedVision]

Do you have CCPM setup on your Tx for NORM and not 120? I think it will be less work if you use NORM and have the unit do all the mixing.


Yes, set for "1 servo Norm" on my DX7...

[n2wizard]

lbcynya
I just received my unit and am in the planning stage. Two questions for you. I see you are using the original washout levers to keep your swash from rotating, but I don't see pins connecting it to the head. Am I missing something? Also, is the extreme angle between the blade grips link to arms normal?
Herman

[fireup]

Yes, set for "1 servo Norm" on my DX7...

Then I would set Tx Travel Adjust to 100% and adjust swash mix in software for starter, eventhough it seems like a low value. Give cyclic a little more than 8 degrees, at lease 10 degrees.

[SpeedVision]

lbcynya
I just received my unit and am in the planning stage. Two questions for you. I see you are using the original washout levers to keep your swash from rotating, but I don't see pins connecting it to the head. Am I missing something? Also, is the extreme angle between the blade grips link to arms normal?
Herman

I drilled a hole in the washout to insert a grub screw to lick it in place. Pins have to be removed to mechanically adjust phase. a littke heat on the pins and they come right out...

The link angle from the arm to the grip is fairly typical for a Titan, but not optimal in my opinion. Adding a stand off would help, but it would be more prone to failure.

I don't like the angle from the swash to the arm either...

Until we get engineered solutions, we have to do the best we can to cobble what we have... ;-)

[n2wizard]

Thanks for the reply
Herman

[SpeedVision]

Then I would set Tx Travel Adjust to 100% and adjust swash mix in software for starter, eventhough it seems like a low value. Give cyclic a little more than 8 degrees, at lease 10 degrees.

Ok, I'll try. Stayed up till 1 am last night, so hopefully I can save the file just in case..

[forjer]

...Until we get engineered solutions, we have to do the best we can to cobble what we have... ;-)
So is someone working on this? Or are you looking for volunteers?

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

ibcynya,

What are the Purple arms off of?

[SpeedVision]

ibcynya,

What are the Purple arms off of?

Trex 450.

[SpeedVision]

So is someone working on this? Or are you looking for volunteers?

Nothing in the works on my end. I think Scott from RC-Tek hinted that he might be working to develop some flybarless heads given the potential of this new unit opening up lots of doors to the accessory market. Only Scott can verify whether this is true or not. For now it's hearsay...

[SpeedVision]

Getting dangerously close to throwing the canopy on and giving it a flight/crash test...:YeaBaby:

1. Couple things are throwing me off about the setup. I'm attempting to get everything setup on on my Mini Titan with reduction arms as Alvin has suggested. Using the swash menu in the setup screen doesn't seem to give me as much control over collective and cyclic as I would have anticipated with the reduction arms. In other words, I am getting too much pitch in all cases and really have to move the swash percentages quite low to see any noticable difference. Like sub 20% which seems too low.... Is that correct or am I over thinking this...

2. What does seem to work (instead of decreasing swash menu) is increasing the travel percentage for the receiver in the setup software. By doing this the stick reaches 100% throw, but only 65% of the throw is sent to the servos, thus reducing the full pitch to the suggested +- 8 degrees for cyclic and +- 11 degrees for pitch. This will require lots of expo in the radio to keep the sticks from feeling mushy...

What am I missing regarding setup... I don't want to lower the swash percentages too much, but adjusting the stick travel ratio seems to be not preferred as well!!!!

3. Also physical swash movement is throwing me off as well. The swash tilts forward/backward dramatically for the full pitch range (left stick up and down), but tilts maybe 25% of the full range for elevator up/down. The software shows everything is moving correctly, and maybe it is, it's just way different than I am used to and I want to make sure all is well before I spin up...

Honestly, the manual is pretty good, but there is just a lot of "newness" associated with the understanding of this whole concept that is going to take a good FAQ forum discussion to resolve on any large scale.

Any suggestions or clarifications regarding the above issues would be much appreciated!!!


Ok, I sorted out all my "self imposed" problems. Combination of over thinking things and staying up too late...

The amout of adjustability in the software is super, but it is a little like a maze at first. If you start making changes, those changes can impact other changes requiring more changes and before you know it...dead end. That's not implying that it's the fault of the software, but with power does come complexity.

I have everything setup up spot on to the instructions and all the variables seem to be well within normal ranges, so travel and servo resoloution is super.

When you really figure out what you're doing, the software does make it fun and easy to see what's going and see if everything is doing what it is supposed to do. The boxes change color to verify direction, green is positive and red is negative. This helps because you only have to see the right color to know if the movement is correct...

I will post my screen shots tomorrow so everyone can have a sample of what seems to work.

Here are my stick movements and their output:

Keeping in mind that my DX7 is set to 1 servo in the model setup screen as suggested.

(Aleron is the right front servo looking from the tail to the nose, pitch is the left front servo and elevator is the rear servo)

Collective forward - All servo's move up at the same rate for positive pitch
Collective backward - All servo move down at the same rate for negative pitch
Cyclic forward (nose down) - Pitch and aleron servos down, elevator servo up
Cyclic backward (nose up)- Pitch and aleron servos up, elevator servo down
Cyclic right (roll right) - Aleron servo down, Pitch servo up, elevator stationary
Cyclic left - (roll left) Aleron servo up, pitch servo down, elevator stationary

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to do some test flying because I have to get everything back together and properly "rigged". That and my girls need attention!!:hug:

[n2wizard]

lbcynya
I am following in your footsteps. Removed the flybar and cage on my Trex- HDX Superframe, moved a couple of arm around,and , after resizing links to get everything level, tried to hover sans flybar. Got it up a couple of feet, but it sure was unstable. Back on ground in one piece, now, on to the new gyros.
Pix attached
Herman

[SpeedVision]

lbcynya
I am following in your footsteps. Removed the flybar and cage on my Trex- HDX Superframe, moved a couple of arm around,and , after resizing links to get everything level, tried to hover sans flybar. Got it up a couple of feet, but it sure was unstable. Back on ground in one piece, now, on to the new gyros.
Pix attached
Herman

Very nice. I haven't tried to go "naked flybarless" yet and with the SK hopefully I can bypass that step.... My zest to try this out was a byproduct of timing, availability and the result of me having my first major crash... All those parts to replace and a and all that resetting and measuring.

Why use an abacus when you can use a calculator, right...

That and the closer to scale the better...

[Caleb Phillips]

I think I'm going to order one of these next week or the week after. I've been itching to go flybarless real bad and now, there's a way! :YeaBaby:

[Skookum]

First, there has been as small change to the SK360's manual. In section 11, page 14, the new text reads:

"11 Flight with the SK-360 Gyro
In flight mode, the swashplate will not respond to the controls directly. Its action will be similar to a heading-hold tail gyro.

After it has been static for a few seconds, it will level the swash during spool up to ensure a stable take off. When you land your heli, always wait at least 5 seconds after the rotor spools down before spooling up again, so the gyro knows the helicopter is spooling up. Avoid moving the cyclic stick during spool-up, to prevent confusing the gyro when it’s not able to fly."

The reason for this is that during spool up the vibration for the first 2 seconds can be extreme (probably due to the blades straightening out) and result in the gyro trying to "correct" a false cyclic error as soon as it can, which can be bad. If it's given a chance to know it's taking off from static, it will level the swash to silently prevent that.

In response to comments I've read here:

>What does seem to work (instead of decreasing swash menu) is increasing the travel percentage for the receiver in the setup software.

Please don't try to reduce cyclic pitch via the control tab or the aileron/elevator travels on your radio. Because you're not reducing the pitch the gyro applies when it tries to stabilize your heli, only the input commands range, that will result in odd behavior and difficulty tuning. You want close to +-100% "Pilot Control" under the "Gyro Internals" column when you move the cyclic stick over its full range.

That said it is ok to set the gyro up for a wide collective pitch range, and then reduce the travel for that channel on your radio to get less pitch. After you've set it up, adding expo or a low-rate option for aileron/elevator at the radio should also work out.

Re cyclic pitch, anywhere in the range of 8-10 degrees will work. Be aware that if you change the cyclic pitch range it will affect the best gain settings, just as if you added a larger horn to your tail servo, the gain would need to be tweaked again.

Re collective pitch, the manual states +-11 degrees but that is only a suggestion, there to put the cyclic pitch range in context. You can set it up for whatever collective range you like.

>The amount of adjustability in the software is super, but it is a little like a maze at first. If you start making changes, those changes can impact other changes...

The solution to this is to set up the control inputs first, then move on to swash & servo setup, which work similar to a computer radio. Most users should be able to ignore the "Advanced" tab.

[SpeedVision]

In response to comments I've read here:


Thanks for the feedback.

The manual does a good job of walking you through the process, but it doesn't touch on some of the elements that could cause people unnecessary experimenting. Because we are adding a second gyro and removing the flybar, it's easy to create and justify odd swash behavior and think that it's "normal"... Because this technology is so new to so many, you will need to spell out some setup examples in your FAQ to insure people can see if they are on the right track or headed for "the maze".

The next phase will be flight testing. I think your troubleshooting guide ,in the back of the manual, will help smooth that process out with most of the fixes to the various behavioral issues that could arise.

Also, I would suggest a "flight characteristic" video to give people the sense of how the gyro performs when not doing crazy 3D. I quote someone on one of these treads saying "a good pilot can fly a manhole cover and make it look good"... Show as a boring video with good old fashioned sport flying, hovering and maybe some inverted hovers to show us the "characteristics" we should expect... Maybe some cause and effect video's too... I think this, if done properly, will sell as many sk-360's as the "thrashing about" videos.

As I said earlier, first impressions of this package are very good! You've presented a well thought out and comprehensive package at an attractive price. The attention to detail from the manual to the cables to the software and the physical unit will payoff for you if we can get these birds up in the air and get them to do as promised without feeling too much like we are on the "bleeding edge" of this technology.

I confident that this unit will deliver!

[SpeedVision]

Here are the screen shots of my initial setup. This is the "mechanical setup". I used the SK software to level the swash and I mechanically adjusted the blades to zero pitch. Once that was taken care of, I focused on getting the swash movements correct.

As suggested, my DX7 was set to 1 servo in the setup menu for the swash. I also insured that all trims and subtrims were zero. All curves were reset to linear (0-100). Basically everything was setup as if you created a new model...

After setup I have +/-8 degrees of pitch for cyclic and +/-11 degrees of collective pitch as suggested.

Please keep in mind that this is pre-flight setup and NO attention has been paid to gain adjustments!

Let me know if you have any comments, questions or suggestions.

[Scott_RC-TEK]

Nothing in the works on my end. I think Scott from RC-Tek hinted that he might be working to develop some flybarless heads given the potential of this new unit opening up lots of doors to the accessory market. Only Scott can verify whether this is true or not. For now it's hearsay...

Yes, this is true. Look for customized heads, tails, and other high-end parts engineered, produced, and finished from within the USA in the near future.

Regards,
Scott

[Skiddz]

I'd sure like to see a 5-bladed head and 4 bladed TR setup Scott.. :)

[eheliflyer]

Waiting for the Trex 500 head. :)

[docjr]

Mine just came today, would I set my DX7 to 1 servo for a 5 bladed head on a Trex 450?
or stay at the 3 servo settings?
It is currently setup and hovers but forward flight is sure is fun filled.
Would I start from scratch in the radio and use the software to level everything out. To get it to fly at this point I used no negative pitch and only +8 at full stick

[SpeedVision]

Mine just came today, would I set my DX7 to 1 servo for a 5 bladed head on a Trex 450?
or stay at the 3 servo settings?
It is currently setup and hovers but forward flight is sure is fun filled.
Would I start from scratch in the radio and use the software to level everything out. To get it to fly at this point I used no negative pitch and only +8 at full stick


I'd say you would use 1 servo in the DX7 regardless. The 5th blade is what has me wondering what would need to happen with phasing, etc... What is your swash type, 120, 135, 140? I would email Skookum for their advice and let us know their response.

[Finless]

Well mine arrived today!

Thanks Skookum!

I will be starting this weekend. Kevin is making my Trex500 head parts now :)

Now I gotta go on a "crash course" on flybarless so I know what the heck I am doing.. I read the manual already and it seems pretty straight forward. I have flown Kevins 500 so I know what to expect. I am going to have to learn and tweak and get it going before I do any setup videos so don;t expect something by next week but for sure probably the week after.

I will start with a whats in the box, software overview, and basic setup per the manual. I will also cover "stick setup" just for the fun of it.
Of course I will do first lift off video based on the basic setup in the manual and you all can see then what I got and what got adjusted.
Then after a week I will come back with what my setup turned out to be and what I adjusted.

Stay tuned!

Bob

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Looking forward to it Bob.:thumbup: