gov mode or not?

[istandalone]

i've got a cc phoenix 60 esc on the rcp 18 1100kv motor. the esc has a gov mode, but i'm not sure how or even if i should use it. i know what it's supposed to do, keep the headspeed constant, which is great when flying in idleup. but what about if your esc is in gov mode in normal? what happens there? i'm confused about this gov thing. dont' know if this matters, but i'm not doing any 3d at all. still stuck on forward flight and figure 8's, albeit sloppy ones.

[slo_dave]

Just watch Bob's video on setting up the CC85.
Explains the gov pretty well.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=36194

[CompuFoil]

In idle1, and 2, you would of course have a flat throttle curve.
In Normal mode, you will still have a flat curve, BUT, at bottom stick it will be zero. Your curve will look like this:
---------
/

The idea is you will still shut down with full low stick. For starting, you would simply set mid stick, flip off throttle hold and let it spool up. You would want to start with the slowest spool up speed, and work your way up from there. I have my TRex setup this way, and am going to switch my hurri550 into gov mode soon as well. I just want to get used to it a little more (only have four flights on it).
Eric

[istandalone]

doh! i knew there was a vid i was meaning to watch. thanks though.

[bugdozer]

I run Gov mode on both my T-Rex and Huri and it's works great, both are CC ESC's. The only down side is when your batts start to go, the go fast as the governor attempts to maintain your head speed and will draw harder on the batts. This unless you are already running at 100% throttle, no gov, but that's not the most efficient way to run a brushless.

[istandalone]

i guess my only other question before i decide whether to go gov or not, is should someone like me who just hovers, ff and figure 8's (sort of, sloppy lol) use gov mode? will someone who is still learning (aren't we all?) benefit from gov mode? or would the gov be just one more thing to have to mess with. so i guess i'd like to ask that if you read this thread and use gov mode, please tell us/me what your skill level is. i really don't want to waste large amounts of time i could be flying, messing with the gov and gearing. thanks in advance for taking the time to answer that question.

[GatoVolador]

I think it's easier actually to be running in governor mode -- especially if your are learning. You'll have constant rotor RPM regardless of your pitch angle. In non-governed you'll have to contend with varying RPM along with varying pitch. The only pain is setup but it's pretty straight-forward. You'll need an optical tach (e.g. SkyTach) to do it right as Bob's videos point out. Make sure you have someone else tach you while you keep the bird on the ground at 0-degree pitch -- don't try to do both yourself! When the headspeed comes-up at 0-degree pitch the bird will get light on the skids and start to rotate and move around slightly. You'll need to correct this to try to keep it one place while someone else shoots your headspeed. You'll need this RPM reading this so you can set your governor mode up correctly so there will be enough "headroom" left so the governor can do it's job. There are many variables involved like motor, gear ratio, ESC settings, etc. so you can't really just wing it. For example, at 70-75% in heli-fixed endpoint mode I'm taching around 2100-2200 RPM. When I switch to heli governor high I acheive 2150RPM at around 32% throttle -- NOT at 75% like I did in heli fixed endpoint mode! If I do go up to 75% throttle in heli governor high I tach at around 2400RPM -- pretty cool right? Not really because if you keep this percentage the governor won't work because it won't have adequate headroom. So for my setup I'm at 32% in normal, 37% in idle 1 and 42% in idle 2. This gets me to around 2250 RPM in idle 2 with enough headroom for the governor to work. The key is you want your mechanical gearing setup so that in heli-fixed endpoint mode you acheive your desired headspeed at about 70-75% throttle. Figure out what your RPM is at 70-75%, 80% and then at 85% (by having someone tach you). Write these numbers down. Then switch to governor mode, set your tach at your 70-75% reading, and then manually increase your throttle curve at midpoint from zero until you hit your tach RPM setting. Note what your throttle percentage is. It might be 30% it might be 70% it really depends on your setup. This percentage will then become your flat-line accross for normal mode. Do the same for the 80% and 85% RPM readings which will set you up for idle 1 and idle 2. It sounds harder than it is until you go thru it a couple of times!

[GatoVolador]

Here's the relevant section from the Castle Creations site (http://www.castlecreations.com/downloads/cl_beta_info.html):

Helicopter set up basics
To get your electric helicopter to fly well and for the new helicopter throttle settings to work properly you need to set your helicopter up correctly. The Heli Throttle types will not compensate for an improper system set up and you may damage your motor, your ESC or your batteries. To make sure your helicopter is set up correctly:
Start your heli set up with ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ mode.

In ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ adjust the endpoints on your transmitter until the system will arm with the stick in the bottom position and the red LED comes on solid on the ESC at full throttle (Solid red LED means full throttle on the ESC). This gives you a full throttle range on your transmitter which assures that your throttle percentages will be correct.
Now set the heli up to get the head speed you want at about 75% throttle in ‘Heli: Fixed Throttle’ mode. Gear as needed to get the desired headspeed at 75% throttle on you transmitter.Set up like this your motor will be running within its efficient operating speed with enough headroom that the motor can maintain this speed with hard collective use. Gearing here is the key. Once you get the headspeed you want at about 75% throttle in ‘Heli: Fixed Throttle’ mode your helicopter will fly well in either ‘Heli: Fixed Throttle’ or in one of the governor modes.
If you decided to use the governor adjust your throttle curve to a straight line that gives you the same headspeed as you got at 75% throttle in ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ mode. Start with Heli: Governor Low’ If you cannot get this headspeed in ‘Heli: Governor Low’ go to ‘Heli: Governor High.’ If the heli is set up right in ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ mode it doesn’t matter what throttle % gives you your desired headspeed in governor mode.
If you can’t gear to get the headspeed you want at about 75% throttle in ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ by gearing you need a different motor or battery voltage. If you cannot get the headspeed you want at about 75% throttle in “Heli: Fixed Throttle’ your helicopter is not set up right and will not work in correctly in ‘Heli: Fixed Endpoint’ or either ‘Governor’ Modes.
Heli: Governor Low: (Helicopter).
When this throttle mode is selected, the Phoenix will automatically maintain your helicopter’s head-speed at an RPM that is determined by the throttle signal. Once you determine the throttle % that gives the head speed you want, your throttle curve should be programmed to be “flat” at that percentage setting (all throttle points set to that throttle %). The following settings must be made in your transmitter’s program; typically one three position switch is used to toggle between the settings:
Phoenix must see a zero or bottom throttle setting to arm, so set one flight mode or switch to provide that signal.
Then set up a second flight mode or switch setting that will be your “throttle up” switch.
Determine the necessary throttle % for your desired head-speed. Start with a flat curve in low governor and measure the head-speed. Move the throttle % up or down to reach your desired head-speed. If you cannot get a fast enough head-speed in low gov, then switch to high gov. When you find the throttle % that produces your desired head-speed, set all the throttle points to that % and the Phoenix will maintain that constant head-speed as long as your transmitter is sending that throttle percentage. It is not advisable to change throttle speed with the transmitter while in governor mode, with the obvious exception of on and off.
Governor Mode general notes:

When using Heli Governor Mode, allow the Phoenix governor to control the spool up of your heli. Trying to control spool up by gradually increasing the throttle can lead to abrupt power changes. It is best to use a switch for startup that goes from zero throttle directly to your required throttle setting when flipped. The Phoenix governor will take it from there.
When using Governor Mode always set ‘Throttle Response’ to Low. This does not effect governor response.
Governor Auto Rotation with Bail-Out Mode (Idle/flight mode) You want to keep the ESC from resetting and going to governed spool up by not going to OFF throttle. Set idle 3 to a low flat throttle curve that keeps the motor running slowly. Now drop the throttle curve down slowly until the motor stops running. Bring the throttle % back up a few points until it begins running again. That setting will be your minimum throttle % to keep the ESC from resetting by going to ‘Off Throttle.’ Your motor will throttle down to your lowest speed setting that will not affect the auto-rotation, while preventing the ESC from resetting and going to governor controlled slow spool up. If you need to bail out simple switch to idle 2 to power back up. Make sure Throttle Response is set to LOW!Heli: Governor High: (Helicopter).
Use when Governor Low won’t provide the head-speed you want. Set up is the same as Governor low. Generally, governor low is for high Kv motors. Governor High is for low Kv motors. The reason for the two governor settings is to accommodate all motor system.

[istandalone]

thanks for the insight. i watched the cc85hv setup vids twice last night so it makes good sense now. one quick question, why can't we get out hs set in -1 degree pitch? it would seem to be safer that way, in case of wind. -1 degree doesn't seem like it would have much drag at all, but i'm guessing there is a reason bob doesn't say to do it that way.

[WhirlingBladesOfDeath]

Yea, I actually set my pitch curve to a flat -2/3 degrees when setting up my governor. This way I can measure the headspeed by myself, I just put the tach under the blades, spool up, and can read the numbers just fine from about 10 feet back. With the negative pitch, you don't have to worry about the heli moving around, and (in my mind anyways) gives you a better result because of the load applied to the motor.

To answer your other question, I really like the gov mode on my CC. When I startup, I flip off TH, move the throttle immediately to mid stick, flip into idle up, and start my timer. Wait for a few seconds for the head to spool up, confirm my timer is counting down, and I'm off to the races.

I've flown both with and without the governor, and realistically it doesn't make any difference at my level. I fly mostly sport, with some sloppy 3D attempts thrown in. I'm just a gadget freak, and can't resist using it since the ESC has it. :)

Either way, I suggest you at least try it for yourself. Gato did a great job explaining it too. In a nut shell, gear your motor to get your desired HS at 80-85% throttle in fixed end point, and then set your governor throttle to whatever is needed to obtain that HS. In governor mode, my TC are something like 0-60-60-60-60, 64-64-64-64-64, 67-67-67-67-67, which gives me a HS of around 2000 in normal, 2200 idle1, and 2400 in idle2. Your numbers will be completely different depending on gearing, motor, etc.

[ukgroucho]

I think the reason you set governor at 0 pitch is because this is the minimum loading that the blades should see - so the governor knows that that is the lowest throttle setting it will have to use and will set HS appropriately.

If you set up with (e.g.) -1 pitch then when you fire up the heli for real you may get mixed results.. for example, a spool up at 0 pitch may result in a different HS (higher or lower depending on governor software).
The point is that you results will be 'mixed'.

I know that Kontronik ESCs (which have a VERY good governor) do all kind of stuff during spool up to work out best timing for the motor and some indication of power system capability.
They absolutely expect 0 pitch when this is happening. I've got Eagletree logs that show the difference in running an old tired pack and a much newer one on the same heli with a Kontronik Jazz - the older pack spools up to a lower HS (same T curve) because the Jazz works out that it lacks mojo...having some -ve pitch during spool up could cause a similar effect, you would end up with a lower HS than expected.

When I set up HS on my Hurri I stuck it on a garden table and poked a couple of 2x4 (or similar) planks 5 or 6 feet long thru the skids. It's pretty intimidating having it spinning on the table by you but 'relatively' safe - as in keep your distance.
Obviously you're only going to do this with 0 pitch you will not be applying any +ve or -ve!

[istandalone]

for the price of those kontronic esc's they should all but fly the heli themselves! they do look sweet though. i might have to try one if i burn out my phoenix 60. hopefully the 60 will be enough for me, but if it shits the bed it'll be a hv85 or a kontronic.

[ukgroucho]

I have 3 Jazz 40-6-18s in Trex 450 derived helis. I had tried CC25, 35, some no-name stuff and finally sprang the cash for a Jazz. OMG! You set it up (small learning curve but pretty easy) and you're done... governor is fantastic, built in SBEC just WORKS. Three years on and the first Jazz is still doing it's thing in one of my Trexes despite having had numerous crashes etc.
I replaced the ESCs in the other two Trexes with Jazzes over then next year (after I bought the first one) and they have been faultless - I did damage one in a crash and sent t back and they repaired an returned very fast ( a week and a half?).
Oh my little Trexes run 3S, 4S and 5S...

When I built my HV Hurri I decided to go with a Jazz 55-10-32. No SBEC but it handles 10S and has the wonderful governor. It's also pretty compact - compared to a CC HV85, I have one in my hobby drawer waiting for deployment. It's been really good....set it up and forget it.