V22 TH2 tandem mixer

[tungym]

Forgive me if you consider V22 not a Tandem rotor helicopter. However, I find all the mixing and control is more like helicopter , rather than a fixed wing.

I see techproduct/ Joe has posted all the parameters in the TH2 support page, but it seems it is updated till 2006. I wonder if the H/A mode P-mix works like it advertized.
http://www.techmodelproducts.com/vtol_sw.htm#VTOL/Tandem%20Control%20Software%20General%20Informatio n
It does not mention how the H/A mode works.

My idea is that in a 90degree transition, the Aileron Tx control becomes the Yaw (Rudder) , and Rudder Tx control becomes Roll (aileron ). I can then set the program mixing on transmitter to
1) Idle 1(A mode) switch to mix AIL-->RUD +100%( as rudder output now becomes roll)
2) Idle 1(A mode) switch , mix AIL -->AIL -100% (cancelling aileron channel output, which is now roll)
..........
too confusing !!!!!!!

I cannot wait to build my CP V22. I have been "dreaming" and brain storming for the last 12 months, since my last fix prop prototype V22.

[sokal]

im agreeing the true scale is much like a heli in that mode anyway it has a swashplate
so just in that fact it is a tandem helicopter

[v22chap]

Yep ,, have to agree ,,it is tandem for sure in heli mode ,,,and it is still tandem in airplane mode as it still has two rotors pulling it thru the air ,,and using collective to control the pitch for forward speed and yaw augmentation .

Tungym
The H/A p mode works in different ways that you can program to suit your bird .... And the reason it does not explain how it works ----- is because those of us feeding Joe information either ran into personal problems or project problems and have not had time to get back to it .

I am just starting to get back with working on it ,, but what I have found will not quite do what I want to do ( still working with it though )

Not sure what your mixing would do ... but here is the way I attacked it .

In heli mode DCP collective controls roll and I use NO cyclic control for roll !!!!
""""""""""""" DCP Elev controls yaw

In airplane mode DCP collective will control Yaw ,, and with the TH-2 the yaw gyro is shut off with the H/A mode
In airplane mode DCP Elv. is shut off with The H/A mode deal as you don't want to loose pitch of any amount to cyclic changes ...so all cyclic is shut off at a choosen % of tilt throw .

I also wanted a 2 position switch to throw to start the transition and take the nacelles to the 60 Degree mode ,,which is the safe mark between H and A modes ... this is real hard to guess when the bird is 200 feet in the air and 200 feet out . Didn't get this ,,but your TX stunt switch works just fine .

Then a rotary knob to finish the tilt at a slower rate ... this can be tied into the TH-2 and as the rotary knob moves over,,, the flaps can come up from 67 Degrees to 40 for take off and then the cyclic shuts off at a preset position on the same knob as you continue into the transition and then the cylic cuts out at a preset position on this same knob and then also moves the flaps on up to airplane mode .

This all really gets mind boggling ...and this 61 yr old mind is starting to loose to much ..
Hope this helps some ...
Larry

[tungym]

Thanks Larry,

I need to have some bench test with TH2 VTOL configuration before I can proceed for further mixing planning.

[v22chap]

Tungym
That is the best way to find out what it does ... as everyone wants to do different types of control .
It is also best to have the servos mounted on the mechanics ,,,or atleast a mock up of them . This way you are sure they are going the direction you want and doing what you want ,,,and don't waste a lot of time reprograming ,,, don't ask me how I know this :oops: :arggg:

If I can help any other way just yell ,,, I have not got it all worked out myself ,,,but I am poking around in it a lot lately .

[tungym]

I am start building my V22 rotor frame. Should I care about the C.G. of the frame on the roll axis. It seems that the heavier rotor should be balanced off,otherwise , the C.G. will be brought forward on transition. Any comment?

[v22chap]

Yep CG all the way around .. the fore / aft is the hard one ... My last one was tail heavy in heli mode and just a little nose heavy in airplane mode ..and it seemed to hover o.k. ...so tail heavy in heli mode is o.k.

[tungym]

I need some wiring diagram for TH2. Can someone help?

It seems Joe's website does not have any update yet.

I am after a 90 degree conversion and my hardware is 70% done. Can I achieve conversion using 6 ch receiver or do I need more?

Actually I have been playing G3 Realflight V22 model for sometime. The key of successful vertical takeoff seems to be a precise rotor tilting transmitter control. In my flight simulator, I make use of the rudder stick as the rotor tilt control and it is quite predictable during transition.

Ay better idea? I own a DX7, which has 3 programming mix only.

[v22chap]

tungym
Technically you can achieve transition with just a 6 channel ... that was the reasoning behind the TH-2 VTOl ,,but with all that I want done during the transition and on different switches .. I have had to use up 3 of my available 6 mixes on my 9303 so far and haven't made the full transition ,,who knows how many more I will need by the time I reach that point !!!

Sorry ,,, actually G3. and 3.5 is even worse ... V-22 don't come close to what the real or my model does ....They simplified it way to much

[tungym]

I am having benchtest the TH2 on V22 cst. However, despite I set all servo /CCPM correctly, I cannot remote command CH5 to switch heli/ aero mode. Supposed parameter 22) on TH2 setting should remotely switch the mode, right?

I can only switch mode by manupulating the 22) parameter through USB conenction.

I am using DX7 and 6channel receiver. I use GEAR channel and disable all Pmix on Tx. Travel limit in Tx 100%..-100%.

CH5 just refuse to switch mode. I take down all gyro away and it still cannot work. I tested receiver Ch5 with a servo and it works fine.

Do I need to set the 33-55) parameter for Pmix on TH2?

Please help!!

[v22chap]

Tungym
I think your problem is... that this function has to be on a rotory knob to work as it requires reading varying ATV percentages and low and top end don't do it for the chip and to my knowledge ..the DX 7 doesn't have a rotory knob ,,,right ...

you might get by with setting the TX ATV 's to try and fool it .. or use a three position switch ... not sure .... let me do some testing with my unit and I will get back to you on this ,,, or maybe Joe will step in and know for sure .

[tungym]

I am getting a bit frustrated as the tech product's web demonstrates so many functions and programming flexibility TH2 has (in VTOL mode.) However, the single line description helps nothing to bench setting.

I just cannot spend another week to figure how the VTOL software works.

http://www.techmodelproducts.com/vtol_sw.htm Last updated 06!

Can someone/ Joe elaborate a workable solution, including flaps, flaperon. ......wiring etc.

I am too stupid and would like to get answers for the questions below:

1) How can I connect the flap servo? Should it be Y-connect to a pod/tilt rotation servo... to CH5

2) How can I connect an aileron flap servo that works only in A mode?

3) What actually is H/A mode P mix refers to? on TH2 board, the 6 output servos is occupied by CCPM servos. How can A mode P mix still output to an extra control servo??

4) From my observation, In A mode the CCPM servos are shut down , except "rudder" movement. So how can aileron servo in A mode be controlled? Should it be connected before the TH2 and feed from the receiver?

Thanks in advance.

[v22chap]

tungym
Yes it is flustrating ... I help design the TH-2 and I have worked with it since 05 and still can't make it do all the stuff I know it can do or want it to do

It is hard to make up a program that fits all guys ideas ...and that is the reason it is so massive ...to try and include everything that all VTOL guys would need ...thus it is a bit over whelming ....


Give me a little bit and I will try to answer you questions ,,but I have to setup my system to try and imulate what you are doing as I mine is completely different I think ....

I also could send you my latest cst file like I did a guy on another forum and it seemed to help him some ..
That is another good thing to do ... when you get a setup that is close .... safe the file ...so if you get completely off base ...you can go back to one that was close .
It takes a lot of try this and if that don't work ...try this .... and if .,,,etc.

[joe@tech-mp]

Nobody asked these question before. I updated the support page to include info on the outputs in the specifications section.


1. The E-prime outputs are used for the flaps/flaperons.

2. Set the H-mode flap position 1 & 2 to zero. This disables the function

3. There are 3 programmable mixes available for each of the two modes Heli and Airplane. Each has 4 input/output choices. They are for general purpose mixing. Some applications may use them others might not. Set the gain to zero to disable them.

4. Setting an input gain to zero disables the function. Set it to 50% (or more) to turn it on.



Joe

www.techmodelproducts.com

[tungym]

Thanks Joe for your prompt reply. I still cannot remote control the A/H mode translation through CH5, despite I leave the default TH2 setting of 90%, CH5 ATV +/-100%. CH5 is controlled by a flip switch in DX7. I try varying the Tx ATV/ travel limit of CH5 but still in vain. Is that my transmitter problem or did I set it incorrectly.

I get a Futaba T7CHP and I wil give it a try if you confirm a knob must be used for CH5.

Too hurry for so many projects at a time.

Thanks.

[joe@tech-mp]

I found that a knob is the best way to get this function working. Also, it helps if you put a servo on the channel as well (Y-cable). This way you can see what it's doing.

Keep in mind that if the channel is reveresd 90% becomes 10% etc....



Joe

www.techmodelproducts.com

[tungym]

Thanks Joe and V22chap,

Yes it works when I feed the TH2 CH5 with other stick channel (like rudder input). So Gear switch will NOT work! My T7CHP have a knob but works only in aeroplane mode. Still puzzling the best connection method using the least channel.

Anyone can suggest if JR DX9 will have a knob that works in heli mode?

[tungym]

Since DX7 does not have a knob, I repeat some test to see if TH2 works.

It seeems to work in these settings:
1) Using rudder recevier output to TH2 Ch5 input: workable, but ATV have to dial up to +105%
2) Using a servo tester (Esky) connect to a VeeTail mixer input 1, receiver Ch5 connect to VeeTail input2, VeeTail output to TH2 Ch5 input.

Can Joe shade some light on this issue? Is that Gear channel does not send the data in each data frame? While a VeeTail mixer will gather and send the complete data frame for CH5?

[joe@tech-mp]

CH5 (TH-2) should be connected directly to the receiver (CH5). Adding external mixers etc. will change the timing relationships and cause problems.

I would recommend using a Futaba 9C radio. Nice knobs ;)



Joe

www.techmodelproducts.com

[tungym]

Can I know exactly why (DX7) gear channel does not work with TH2 VTOL program? It works in TH2 Tandem mode (DCP gain) but not in VTOL mode (H/A mode switching)?

It does not work with the knob of Futabta T7 either! How about JR DSX9/X9303? Do I have no choice either than Futaba T9?

Do I misunderstand anything? Is this transmitter problem or TH2 programming design by default?

I try to stick this project with a 6 receiver. Or a 7 channel reciever if necessary....still scratching my head???

[v22chap]

I can tell you that it will work with the JR 9303 as that is what I am using ... I have the channel programed to my throttle curve adjustment slider on the side of the radio and it is really nice not to have to leave the throttle stick to find the rotoray knob on top of the TX

[joe@tech-mp]

Not sure what the problem is. It all worked fine when I tested it.

Are you using CH5 ? You cannot use CH7 since the TH-2 syncs on CH6.

Try setting the switch point to 40%, Use CH5 and adjust the ATV, Also Y-connect a servo so you can see it moving.


Joe

www.techmodelproducts.com

[tungym]

I almost get the answer. DX7 Gear channel is a pure switch and not sending proportional signal as of TH2 VTOL software required. (But why Tandem software works, Joe should know).


Talks about other FPV pilot wants to convert DX7 switch to proportional output, but seems no workable solution
http://www.rc-cam.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t2397.html


In the paragraph explaining PCM , that PPM 's limited bandwidth (22.5ms, I did measure it, sending 8 channel pulses for DX7 ) to generate proportional output to all channels. Not certain, as DX7 does not use PPM internally.
http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2000/PCM/PCM_PPM_eng.html

More about channel 5 of DX7. Definitely not proportional, even Ch 7 (AUX1)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=812972

For those who are successful to have TH2 VTOL CH5 work, I guess the reason is that they are using Futaba 9/ JR 10, that are capable to send proportional signal through gear channel.

Hope Joe can have some fix / work round/ upgrade for the VTOL software. As more (mean@#$%) people are using DX7!

[joe@tech-mp]

If the DX7 won't work then get a radio that does. It's that simple - problem solved ;)

I have no plans to change/upgrade the VTOL software anytime soon. It works.



Joe

www.techmodelproducts.com

[tungym]

So can anyone tell me whether TH2 CH5 works with DSX9/ X9303, before I spend $600 ?