Z20 and Z30 flown back to back

[Kepler]

I have been very happy with the Z20 but I couldnt resist trying a Z30. But to be fair, I felt that both setups should be geared for similar head speeds of around 2200 rpm.

This meant the Z20 need a 16 tooth pinion and the Z30 could do the same RPM on a 14 tooth. Govenor was set to 90% on both setups.

Unfortunatly I dont have an Eagletree so I cant provide any fancy graphs but what I can report is that in this configuration, the Z30 felt only marginally more powerful then the Z20. Fight times were similar at around 6 1/2 minutes using 3700 mah packs and putting back 3200 mahs. One major difference was that the Z20 gets quite hot in this configuration but Z30 only gets luke warm.

So it would seem that the Z20 when pushed is not so far of the Z30 afterall in terms of performance. Might be a different story once a put the 15 tooth pinion on the Z30 though.

[Vinger]

Did you change the throttle and pitch curve, because to really compare motors you must not only gear the motor correctly, but must use the motor in it's power range. This means changing the pitch/throttle relationship as well. I have seen so many setups that are so over/under-pitched that the poor motor cannot but get hot. Every motor needs to be setup so that it can run efficiently. Better starting point would be to gear and setup pitch/throttle for the same duration and then compare power delivery etc.

Just my two cents

[Kepler]

Pitch range stayed the same and is a standard 3D pitch curve set to - 10 to +10 with zero at half stick. Governor was set flat line and 90%. Both motors were close to their max rpm at 6S voltages. Head speeds were very similar and both motors could handle full pitch. This setup did provide similar flying times, maybe lost 15 seconds with the Z30. I suppose this was to be expected but I also expected to be able to add a at least another degree of pitch with the Z30 without loosing headspeed. I recon maybe 1/2 degree could be added over the Z20 which was a bit disapointing. There was however less head speed decay through hard manouvres. I will see what the 15 tooth brings.

[martiol]

That's how electric motors work. How many watts they can produce is limited to their effect ratio and heat dissipation. The big difference between Z20 and Z30 is how much heat they can transfer. If the motor gets too hot it may ruin the magnets.

[ianjh123]

I thought it was just me! I went from the Z20 1470 to the Z30 1110 and didn't notice much difference. Same flight times too. I just put it down to my governor torque setting on 'soft' limiting the motor performance. Both motors were geared for 2200rpm headspeed at 90% of maximum motor speed. Both run cool in cool weather and hot in warm weather. Just about to buy a logger to see if efficiency can be improved.

[Kepler]

Had quite a few fights with the Z30 today and really had a good chance to wring it out. The Z30 is definitely more of a step up over the Z20 then I first thought. Head speed was very solid no matter what I threw at it and the heli was noticably faster in forward flight with the climb before a 540 stall being massive. I liked the new power alot but I was definitly working my packs hard. Still go 6 minutes out of my 4250 mah packs but they were coming down at 125 deg F and the motor was reaching about 130 deg F. I like the power alot and plan to stay with the Z30 for now. Will be interesting to see how the gears hold up.

[Kepler]

Took some inflight amp readings with the Z30 14 tooth 90% governer.
can see why my packs are getting hot.

Hover: Average 32 Amp
Normal forward flight: Average 40 Amp.
Full throttle fast forward flight: Average 55 Amp.

5.30 minutes flight with a wide range of flying manouvers but minimal hovering 3200 mahs put back in the packs (hyperion 4250 mah LCX packs, very similar to Evolites)

Average current draw for the flight = 35 amps.

Not what i would call economical but I suppose this is the cost of performance.

[ps61785]

so for basic flying and mild 3d what setup do you recommend...i have a carbon frame and plan to progress my skills and would not like to have to buy a second motor later...the only thing that i dont like is the height of the Z30A as i have the fiberglass canopy and dont know where to begin with cutting it to fit around the motor...but i want the power...

...i am running 2, 3s 3700mAh evo 25 packs in series for a 6s setup and liked the 7-8 minute run times that i got with my RCP 18H until it smoked after 5 flights(defective motor)...granted i never beat on it as i was still working the packs in...i would be fine with 6 minutes of mild 3d and 5 minutes of hard 3d when i progress that far...any suggestions?

...are hacker motors any more effecient therefore providing a longer run time?

[Kepler]

I think Z30 if you are already at mild 3D stage and looking for a motor that will progress with you. This is the same boat I am in and I am sticking the Z30. I am thinking of trying a 13 tooth to take a bit off the stain of the packs especially over our hot summer. Then go back to a 14 tooth when the weather cools down a bit.

[ps61785]

what kind of run times are you getting...and how did you get the Z30 to fit under the canopy

[Kepler]

Z30 clears the stock plasic canoy by about an 1/8th" so no need to cut anything. My current flight times are 5.30 min using 4250 mah packs and putting back 3300 mah at charge. Using 85% governor and lots of fast forward flight with big manouvres which I think can be harder on flight times then 3D due to full power being used for long bursts rather then the short bursts need for 3D

[ps61785]

well i would assume that the fiberglass and plastic canopies are the same therefore it should fit...

as far as amperage goes i used to have the RCP H18 and got 6-8 minute run times full throttle...

RCP H18 - Max Amps is 60amps and the continuous amperage is 50amps

Z30A 1110kV motor - Max amps is also 60amps

I have the 3700 Flightpower packs running a 2 pack 3s config to give me 6s. I loved the performance of the RCP H18 motor, but unfortunatly it was defective and failed after only 5 flights. Anybody have any specs on hacker motors that would work well in the Hurry...

Thanks...

[Vinger]

http://www.aero-model.com/motordetails.aspx?series=A40%208-Pole%20Heli&style="L"

This one should work perfect, 110kV 1100W. I should get mine today and shall report when I fly it. Hacker have a reputation to be more efficient than other motors. Have one in my MT and it is awesome to experience their power and efficiency. Apparently their kV ratings are under load as well.

[ukgroucho]

Z30 clears the stock plasic canoy by about an 1/8th" so no need to cut anything.

My z30 touched my (initial) plastic canopy. I was also worried about air flow so I trimmed it.
Have also trimmed my FG canopies.

[mjdee14]

http://www.aero-model.com/motordetails.aspx?series=A40%208-Pole%20Heli&style="L"

This one should work perfect, 110kV 1100W. I should get mine today and shall report when I fly it. Hacker have a reputation to be more efficient than other motors. Have one in my MT and it is awesome to experience their power and efficiency. Apparently their kV ratings are under load as well.

Your link didn't go to the motor, but the 8 and 10 pole motors really need big lipos....they state 4 + mins on 3800 6s lipos....

These motors may be powerful but they sure suck up the amps.....

are your lipos that big? 3800 - 5000

[Vinger]

If you look at the gear ratios they talk about (9.63:1), then it would need those large mAh batteries. I am going to experiment with "our" (Gaui) ratios that would be normal for the 1100 motors to get to 2000 rpm headspeed. (11.49) That is 68t front pulley, 19t pinion and 19 t OWB. This all on six cell 3300 mAh packs.

Only way to see is to experiment!!!!!! (Bummer LHS can only get the motor in a weeks time)

[mjr_larkin]

This is a very 'beginner' question to ask but, I thought that a governer was only for nitro powered heli

[worldofmaya]

Hi!
@Vinger: If you thought about the ZPower motor with 1100kV that is used by Mikado, that's an Z30.
@mjr_larkin: Governor is something that holds head speed. This is something one would want to have with nitro as well as with electric helis. A nitro governor uses a external source to detect rpm, a Esc in an eHeli uses power as source for a motors rpm.
-klaus

[helvetic]

Hi!
@Vinger: If you thought about the ZPower motor with 1100kV that is used by Mikado, that's an Z30.


I'm not sure about that. My friends Logo-500 3D has a Z-Power motor with almost 50 mm diameter. This seems to be a Z50, IMO

[mjr_larkin]

Is the 1500w (1100kv) GAUI motor comparable to the Z30A?

@worldofmaya: what governor would you use for an eHeli? or is ESC synonymous with governor. thanks

[Kepler]

Yes, they are similar power. The Z30 is more efficient and runs cooler though. Probably good for an extra 30 seconds flight time on the same packs with similar fight styles.

[Kepler]

I think I have found the sweet spot for this Heli.

After flying this heli for a year with many combos I have come to the conclusion that the following is the best battery / motor / gear ratio combination.

Z30 Motor
13 tooth pinion
3700 mah 6S.
90% gov (Align 75A ESC)
500mm RCP carbon blades.
Stock heli but with metal head.

The 13 tooth takes enough load off the Z30 to keep it cool but still keeps the motor on song and gives you enough head speed for some serious punch. In combination with the 3700 mah packs, 7 minutes of what ever I can throw at this fine heli leaves a safe 20% in reserve. I havent measured the actual head speed but just just over 2000 rpm would be close to the mark.

Its not the killer crazy 3D setup but is still enough for stong 3D without pushing the gear train past its design limits.

I have tried 5 different motors and pinions from 13 tooth to 16 tooth covering 200 odd flights to finally come to this conclusion. Crashed only twice during this time, both due BEC failures and spent about $100.00 in total reparing the machine. Mechanically, the only replacements have been 1 autorotation bearing and matching shaft and both bearings in the tail drive output shaft.

No complaints here about this great true 500 sized heli.

If you are looking for a stronger drive train combination I think we should go with a 15 tooth pinion to 50 tooth intermediate and 20 tooth on the one way bearing to 61 tooth final. This gives 10.16 ratio and I think the most robust combination for the Z30 motor. If I have another oneway bearing fail, this the is combination I will use.

[Vinger]

Hacker A40-10L 8 pole heli motor

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/Vinger01/RH.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/Vinger01/LH.jpg

Settings as follows:

3300mAH 6 cell
90 Opto ESC in gov mode = headspeed 2100rpm
22t-68t-20t-62t gears
TC 83% across
Flying time = 8min of FF, loops, rolls and hovering (still learning the 3D stuff
used 3000mAH from batteries
motor cool as is Lipos

:clapppAWESOME Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clappp

[ukgroucho]

Vinger, are you using Air Thunder or similar packs that are capable of deep discharge? If not then using 3000MaH from a 3300MaH pack is going to kill the pack very quickly.
You'll probably find that the pack is pretty warm at the end of the flight... this causes the pack to 'wear' quicker so you will get less cycles from it.

If you keep discharge below 80% (max 2700MaH in your case) then you should get longer service from the pack.

FWIW, I run a z30 800Kv on 10S 2300MaH. 5 minutes of agressive flying and mild 3D typically uses ~1200MaH with HS in the 2100 - 2200 range.

[vicrc]

Vinger, are you using Air Thunder or similar packs that are capable of deep discharge? If not then using 3000MaH from a 3300MaH pack is going to kill the pack very quickly.
You'll probably find that the pack is pretty warm at the end of the flight... this causes the pack to 'wear' quicker so you will get less cycles from it.

If you keep discharge below 80% (max 2700MaH in your case) then you should get longer service from the pack.

FWIW, I run a z30 800Kv on 10S 2300MaH. 5 minutes of agressive flying and mild 3D typically uses ~1200MaH with HS in the 2100 - 2200 range.

What is your transmission gears on the 10s? Just wondering as I can try 9s packs on my HV85. That might be a good option for me as I have plenty of 2500 packs that also run my Trex 500. I bet your packs don't even see much heat at that voltage.