9303 2.4Ghz lockout - Futaba fasst?

[spdntckt]

I had an unfortunate lockout and ensuing crash today. earlier in the day i had a few small glitches here and there - i should have called it the day and went home but i just couldn't resist that one last pack. I have *never* had glitching on my 2.4ghz radio before.. One interesting data point is that the glitching got *real* bad when i flew in front of another plank flyer using a futaba FASST tx. I dont have a FASST system to test this, but it seems awful coincidental that this heli has flown flawlessly for 150+ flights and the only time it glitched was when flying near the futaba system.

Has this happened to anyone else? Are FASST and SPektrum/JR DSM compatible in simultaneous flight?

[N11634]

That's the first I've heard of that happening. If the receiver gets info without the controller ID attatched to it, it's supposed to ignore it. It sure makes me nervous with my new X9303!:confused:

[Shakes268]

Spektrum/JR transmit on 2 separate channels and the receiver is bound to only listen to the code transmitted by your transmitter.

What receiver was being used? Could it have been a line of site problem? Shadowing?

The FASST might hop over the spektrum/JR frequencies but your receiver is not going to accept the signal because it doesn't contain the same code.

[spdntckt]

I am using the 9 channel rx which comes with the 9303. I dont believe that LOS was a problem as i was tail in and the rx is on the bottom tray in the rear. I even have the redundant rx over on the back of the tail servo which has great LOS. It was very strange - the system just completely locked out and had no control for about 1-2 seconds - as i was flying low and in the middle of a tic-toc it was just enough time to not allow me altitude to recover :(

i dont know anyone with a FASST system to test with......

[DavidH]

Spektrum and Futaba FASST use two totaly different protocols. So really no way for one to interfer with the other. Futaba is constantly hopping between the frequencies in the 2.4ghz band and Spektrum is locked onto two of the frequencies. Plus the GUID between the two radios would be different.

David

[kgfly]

I agree, highly unlikely to be due to a single FASST Tx operating nearby. Some things to consider...

Was your Tx antenna pointing at the model ?

Is there any way the bind button could have been pressed by accident (eg pressure from Tx stand or Tx tray, belt buckle, tummy etc) ?

Is this a new integrated X9303 or a 9303 + Spektrum module ? Could the module be loose ? Check the pins inside the connectors between the module and the Tx, there have been reports of pins pushed out and making intermittant contact. Check the

I also suggest checking the antennae on the Rx for vibration/abrasion damage, especially at the base where they exit the case and if possible, the actual solder joint on the PCB.

Check where the Tx antenna cable is plugged onto the PCB, sometimes this is loose or damaged leading to intermittant problems. Check the Tx antenna wire where it passes through the hinge in the external antenna for abrasion, crimping or any other damage.

[rstacy]

Has this happened to anyone else? Are FASST and SPektrum/JR DSM compatible in simultaneous flight?

spdntckt,
I have recently attended 2 indoor events where Spektrum and FASST flew side by side. The most recent was the E-Fest where there were many FASST and Specktrum systems on at the same time.
I know that we didn't have any problems nor did I hear of anyone else having a problem.

[BarracudaHockey]

I guess you already figured this out but your helicopter was talking to you.

[Dave M]

Spektrum and Futaba FASST use two totaly different protocols. So really no way for one to interfer with the other. Futaba is constantly hopping between the frequencies in the 2.4ghz band and Spektrum is locked onto two of the frequencies. Plus the GUID between the two radios would be different.

David

I seem to recall Futaba saying that it was impossble to have 2 radios controlling 1 model......well we all know how that worked out.:arggg:

[rstacy]

I guess you already figured this out but your helicopter was talking to you.

True but what was it saying?
Apparently the FASST system continued to function without a problem.
The Spektrum system had a few glitches earlier
I had an unfortunate lockout and ensuing crash today. earlier in the day i had a few small glitches here and there

That should never happen. I doubt that this accident had anything to do with the FASST radio.

[spdntckt]

Thanks for all the posts.. Just as a safe measure I disassembled the heli/electronics, replaced all the main bearings (head /tail), disassembled all the power related connectors (on the arizona regulator / etc) to ensure the solder joints and crimps inside the RX plugs were good, replaced the RX lipo with a new one, added a 2nd remote RX (now there are the two internal to the AR9000, plus two satellites), and grounded the negative battery/esc lead to the motor mount. I ranged checked it with the back button pushed and could go about a block - that as far as i could go while still being able to see if the servos were moving. I flew it 6 flights between yesterday and today at a field near where i work in milpitas - no problems. I have not been back to baylands to try it - still have to get over the bad mojo feeling. When i head out there I think i'll remove the main blades, spin it up and have a few others fire up their TX's to check for interference before i dare a flight.... Per all of your feedback it does logically seem like the two systems should not interfere, however i can tell you definitively that my bird lost control at precisely the same moment as the FASST system was powered up.. It just feels like an aweful coincidence.... who knows.. maybe it was just bad mojo..

[istandalone]

isn't there some sort of issue with the fasst modules? i saw a thread somewhere here about an issue, but i'll be damned if i can remember which forum or even what the issue was.

[ke6d]

isn't there some sort of issue with the fasst modules? i saw a thread somewhere here about an issue, but i'll be damned if i can remember which forum or even what the issue was.

They sent out a few modules with duplicate GUIDs. This is only affecting the FASST system, because the affected receiver could be also listening to FASST TX other than its matched one.

Futaba said the the problem would very rare since two duplicate GUID TXs have to be at the same field at the same time and turned on for the interference to occur.

Dan

[Pinecone]

They sent out a few modules with duplicate GUIDs. This is only affecting the FASST system, because the affected receiver could be also listening to FASST TX other than its matched one.

Futaba said the the problem would very rare since two duplicate GUID TXs have to be at the same field at the same time and turned on for the interference to occur.

Dan

Yeap so rare it happened at least 3 times. Futaba found out about it from the people who had the problem. :)

And you CAN zero the GUID on the 6 and 7 ch setups by powering cycling in a small time window.

[Intrepid175]

Yeap so rare it happened at least 3 times. Futaba found out about it from the people who had the problem. :)

And you CAN zero the GUID on the 6 and 7 ch setups by powering cycling in a small time window.
Well, 3 times out of all the systems they've sold throughout the world isn't exactly a bad percentage, and yes, they found out about the problem through the customers. That, in and of itself, isn't out of the ordinary. Futaba has openly admitted their error and taken positive steps to identify the effected units and get them replaced. We've got two 6EX's that were tested at a local hobby shop that had been sent the required testing equipment and they were both clear, fortunately.

I've heard of folks deliberately provoking a failure by repeated cycling of the power switch in spite of the fact that Futaba specifically cautions against doing that. Some have stated that they think this is a design flaw and Futaba should fix it. Personally, I don't necessarily agree with that. As our radios become more sophisticated, it's seems to me to be natural that certain proceedures will need to be followed by the operators. I doubt that any of you would consider repeatedly pulling the plug on your PC when it was half way through the boot process. Why would any of us consider doing that to our computer based transmitters? The times that Futaba recommends leaving a transmitter on before turning it back off again is only a second or two and shouldn't be a big deal for anyone. It's virtually impossible for a manufacturer to made a product idiot proof and if an idiot insists on doing what the instructions specifically tell them not to, there's not much the manufacturer can do about it. At some point, the operator has to take responsibility for what they're doing. We see this disclaimer in the assembly instructions of every helicopter kit we buy. It's no different for the radio systems too!

FWIW!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Pinecone]

The people who forced the ZGUID were trying to prove that it could happen by a power cycle within a very narrow window. Futaba denied that it could happen. And as for repeatedly, the one person managed to ZGUID their radio in 4 tries. The time window that was published was +/- 0.1 seconds, so people had to try repeated times to hit the window. They were performing an experiment to validate a theory. Yes, I would multi half boot my system if I was trying to prove something specific would happen that the manufacturer denied could ever happen.

And the point is, at the level of equipment in the field, 2 or more ZGUID radios showed up at the same field, at the same time, at LEAST 3 times. And Futaba claims that this is unlikely to every happen. HELLO, it already happened multiple times. Now take this out 5 years. How many moore Futaba radios would there be? And how much MORE likely would this be?

Yes, they now seem to have a fix. I have not followed it closely, but up to a couple of weeks ago they were still denying the field resets of the GUID and so therefore couldn't have a fix, but this may have changed. And I appluad Futaba for moving on this. But they did not IMMEDIATELY accept the problem and get a fix out. They toook some time before acknowledging tha radios had been shipped that way. And they took a longer time to accept that it could happen to radios that started with a valid GUID.

[Intrepid175]

The people who forced the ZGUID were trying to prove that it could happen by a power cycle within a very narrow window. Futaba denied that it could happen. And as for repeatedly, the one person managed to ZGUID their radio in 4 tries. The time window that was published was +/- 0.1 seconds, so people had to try repeated times to hit the window. They were performing an experiment to validate a theory. Yes, I would multi half boot my system if I was trying to prove something specific would happen that the manufacturer denied could ever happen.
That Futaba denied that this could happen doesn't surprise me, and I don't hold that against them. I can imagine that they tested the system in any number of ways and were not able to cause a problem. You, yourself state that the established window to cause this issue is +/- 0.1 seconds!!! Give me a break! So someone manged to do it in 4 tries. With such a narrow window, that sounds more like dumb luck to me than anything else. That Futaba didn't discover it in their testing isn't a surprise to me at all and even if they did, I don't blame them for saying it couldnt happen with such a narrow window. I mean, come on, the chances of it happening are so long as to make it a non-issue. If I were them, I wouldn't have thought it likely and if the operator is using the radio as they should, the chances of causing a problem are just abut zero!

And the point is, at the level of equipment in the field, 2 or more ZGUID radios showed up at the same field, at the same time, at LEAST 3 times. And Futaba claims that this is unlikely to every happen. HELLO, it already happened multiple times. Now take this out 5 years. How many moore Futaba radios would there be? And how much MORE likely would this be?
As I tried to point out before, "how many of these radios are out in the field, world wide?" And world wide, they've only had 3 confirmed incidents. From a percentage point of view, how bad is that? 2%, 1%, .0001%?? I don't know but it's probably very small. I know that's not any consolation to the individuals that were effected but the fact is, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that bad. As long as two effected sets don't wind up at the same field "and" turned on at the same time, there's no problem.

Yes, they now seem to have a fix. I have not followed it closely, but up to a couple of weeks ago they were still denying the field resets of the GUID and so therefore couldn't have a fix, but this may have changed. And I appluad Futaba for moving on this. But they did not IMMEDIATELY accept the problem and get a fix out. They toook some time before acknowledging tha radios had been shipped that way. And they took a longer time to accept that it could happen to radios that started with a valid GUID.
From what understand, their "fix" is to simply replace the effected units as they are identified. That should be acceptible to anyone as far as I'm concerned.

As for not acting IMMEDIATELY, what's so unusual about that? Come on, they're hit with a problem that all of their resourses tell them shouldn't be happening. At that point, they've got to determine exactly what's going on. Like it or not, that takes time. It would be interesting to know how many times that Futaba, or JR, or Airtronics, or anyone else you care to name, has been hit with a complaint and when they looked into it, it turned out to be an operator screw up and not an issue with the product itself. I think you'd be surprised at how large that number would be. So, they did a little research, discovered a problem with a few effected transmitters, looked into how and why those transmitters got released the general public, and then issued a statement describing what happened (admitted their error), and subsequently came up with a plan of action to correct the problem. I'm sorry if that didn't happen fast enough to placate everyone but from what I've seen of such things with other manufacturers in similar situations, it happened pretty darn quick!

As for the operator causing the issue with a properly programmed radio, it's not an issue if you operate it correctly. Futaba has from the beginning, told us not to cycle the power off until the radio is fully booted up and to not turn it on again until it's fully shut down. Total time for either scenario is less than 5 seconds by my experience and it applies to the 14MZ, the 12Z, probably the 12FG, and their 2.4 systems so it's not just one radio but practically all of their systems. Use it as instructed, no problems! Don't use it as instructed, and it's your falt, not Futaba's!

The important part is that they have admitted their error and are doing everything they can to find and replace all effected units. I imagine that there will be some that will never be identified but that's not an issue either as long as they don't wind up at the same field "and" turned on at the same time.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Pinecone]

1) The flipping switches was being tested because several people reported that their radios had switched to ZGUID. One day, had to bind all their Rxes again. And after that, they had the ZGUID. Futaba said it couldn't happen. Someone published the time and range so people tested it. That time frame is right about what someone would do to just check their voltage. Other reports are from letting the battery run totally dead. And it had ALREADY HAPPENED to people.

2) 3 confirmd ON THE FORUMS. How many other cases occured and either nobody realized what happened or just doesn't do the forum? Out of how many radios sold? Maybe not that many, but as you increase the number of radios, the likelihood goes up. If there is only ONE FASST radio at your field, it has 0 chance of happening, and that has been very common until recently.

3) But what about all the radios out there that CAN have the GUID reset in the field. Replacing only the ones that already have ZGUID doesn't fix the problem. Unless you want to test your radio and every other FASST at the field everytime you do go fly.

4) Denial is not the proper answer. The proper answer is, we don't think that can happen, but we will look into it.

[DavidH]

The flipping switches was being tested because several people reported that their radios had switched to ZGUID. One day, had to bind all their Rxes again. And after that, they had the ZGUID.

How did these people know there transmitters had ZGUID? Did they have an instrument that could read the GUID of the transmitter?
I don't think because they had to rebind that it nessecarily means it was ZGUID.

David

[Pinecone]

They were tested later and confimred ZGUID. But having to rebind all your Rxes is a sign that the GUID in the Tx has changed.

Also working with a NIB never bound Rx used to be a test. But I understand Futaba has changed the Rx firmware to NOT work with a ZGUID radio. But most hobby shops should have a Futaba "tester" available, which is a power source and ZGUID Rx.

So now, if none of your Rxes work (new ones) and you can't get them to bind, you Tx has probably reset to all zeros. But lots of older Rxes out there.

[DavidH]

But having to rebind all your Rxes is a sign that the GUID in the Tx has changed.


You sure about that?

David

[Pinecone]

Yes. If ALL of your receivers stop listening to your Tx, it is most likely that something has happened to your Tx. Assuming it is not totally dead, which rebinding and it working, indicates that that somehow the Rx no longer recognizes the Tx, which is likely the GUID changing.

And every one who has reported having to rebind all their Rxes ended up having a ZGUID on later checking.

[DavidH]

And every one who has reported having to rebind all their Rxes ended up having a ZGUID on later checking.


Some of the owners that have changed the switch from General to France have said they have had to rebind there recievers. But yet there GUID was not affected. So not all have ended up with ZGUID.
David

But getting back to the original subject of this thread.
Why did the 9303X on 2.4 ghz lock out?

[Pinecone]

Some did and some didn't with the France/rest of the world switching. But if you do NOTHING and have to rebind, it is a good indicator that you have reset to ZGUID. That make you happier? :)

No idea on the original question. I would like to see it repeated to make sure it wasn't just coincidence.

[spdntckt]

Hi guys -

quick update on this. I did some testing by borrowing a friend's FASST system. I could repeatedly make my AR9000 lockout when powering up the Futaba within about 25 feet of the model (even with the 9303 turned on). starting further testing i even brought out one of my WiFi routers which works on 2.4ghz and found that it caused the AR9000 to lock out as well.

Feeling frustrated at this point i grabbed my synergy (which also has an AR9000 with 2 external RXs) and tested it. No problems. Zip, Nada....

This was strange.. I then swapped out the AR9000 from the synergy into the TREX and found that it worked fine... using the old TREX rx in the synergy also caused lockouts.. (so it cannot be the power system or any noise from a component) Looks like i have a bad AR9000. I sent it back to Spektrum for testing and a replacement unit.

I am still not sure why this happened.. i could understand if somehow the noise filters in the rx were going bad that it may glitch or something like that. but a lockout is very strange (it locks out for about 4 seconds then comes back.. almost like it lost power..)

anyway - i am happy that (i believe) to have found the problem!!!