check out this video (brown out problem?) IT IS STATIC!

[Justin911]

on the 7000.. None personally. My buddy (torkboy) had a lockout with his 6200... now I am gonna try a 9000 tomorrow because my buddy is gonna loan it to me for a while until 7000 are in stock at my shop and I will see how that works out.

[motomanmel]

Justin, What about your r770 PCM receiver, did you have a problem with that?

[cbdane]

Look at the first vid again, do you think it's possible to get feed back thru the gyro to the Rx ? Also, something I forgot to mention, the screws holding the gyro together are on the bottom where it mounts. The boom block is statically charged, that's why i relocated it.

Don't forget that the Futaba gyros (e.g. the 401) have electrically conductive plastic cases to increase resistance to interference (induced current) from magnetic fields (electric motors, high current wiring, etc.). The manuals warn against letting the plastic case come into contact with bare wiring to avoid shorts. This would work against you when trying to isolate against static discharge. The gyro case could serve as quite a large bare collector, carrying discharge spikes back to the receiver.

Just for grins, stick your two DMM probes (reading ohms) onto two different spots on the 401 case to see what I mean.

I hope that this is helpful.

[Justin911]

Justin, What about your r770 PCM receiver, did you have a problem with that?

with the R770, I never had a single problem... I only had 7 flights on my heli, but when it flew, it was no problems at all... I just got my x9303 and sold my xp9303 so I will most likely find out very shortly...

Don't forget that the Futaba gyros (e.g. the 401) have electrically conductive plastic cases to increase resistance to interference (induced current) from magnetic fields (electric motors, high current wiring, etc.). The manuals warn against letting the plastic case come into contact with bare wiring to avoid shorts. This would work against you when trying to isolate against static discharge. The gyro case could serve as quite a large bare collector, carrying discharge spikes back to the receiver.

Just for grins, stick your two DMM probes (reading ohms) onto two different spots on the 401 case to see what I mean.

I hope that this is helpful.

I think that is one of the tests he will do tomorrow.. he was planning on doign more but wasn't sure what they were yet.

[OICU812]

Graphit33 solves it all, spray onto rag, wipe on belt, done.

[HELINHAWAII]

You guys see this...? :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XNSfrUg-M4

What an (insert expletive)! He just won't give up. If he thinks these things you guys are doing is wrong, why doesn't he just move on and forget about us?

[rdlohr]

Great vids. You really appear to be on to something. This clearly shows a very different ESD pattern around the receiver area of the 500 vs. the receiver area of the 450. It seems the 450 has one major ESD source, the gears. It appears the 500 has two, the gears and the tail boom.

The 500 has ESD all around the area we place the receiver in. I would assume that any wires or electronics in the ESD zones could pick up that noise.

I assume there are two ways protect your electronics from the ESD.
1) Remove the sources of the ESD
2) Physically isolate your electronics from it

For option 1, removing the sources:
Source 1: The tail
We have already thought of many parts of this. Grounding pulleys front and back, lubing belts, different belt material, all contribute to this. Not sure how grounding the ESC fits in but I suspect that helps too.

Source 2: The Gears
This one is new to me. I hadn't realized this was a major source of ESD. I would like to see us ground the bearings of the main gear, try different materials, etc to try to minimize this ESD.

Whats nice is that now that we have a way to actually see where the ESD is coming from, we can try experiments and prove that we can systematically limit it.

For option 2, Physically isolate your electronics from it
I think we have been doing this on the 450 for years. We have always said it was best practice to have your receiver components as far away from your motor components as possible which lead us to move receiver parts to the back. This also moved us further from the gears. Also, minimizing wire lengths helps with less pickup area.

For the 500, since there are two ESD sources, its pretty darn hard to get the receiver electronics including the gyro and servo wires away from both sources. Moving everything toward the back and down seems to make sense. I think we will have to limit the ESD by the steps in option 1 then put the electronics in the safest spot we end up with.

Great job ChasHeliCop with the videos and the rest of you guys that have given us additional information on this! This was definite headway in my mind! Can't wait to hear Fireup and Finless input on this!

Rick

[rdlohr]

Graphit33 solves it all, spray onto rag, wipe on belt, done.
Thanks Shawn. Can you post a good link to an on-line source to buy this?

I would like to see a vid showing this has removed the ESD.

Rick

[cmb2003svt]

Rick,
Post #10 & 12

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=57487&highlight=graphite&page=2

[rdlohr]

Rick,
Post #10 & 12

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=57487&highlight=graphite&page=2

Thanks, repeated here from Shawn's earlier post:

http://www.loeneninstruments.com/index.php?catid=839 (http://www.loeneninstruments.com/index.php?catid=839)

http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/setpage....&dok=12257.htm (http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/setpage.pl?http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/dyndok.pl?lang=en&dok=12257.htm)


http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=3308 (http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=3308)

I would like to see the vid after this stuff is aaplied. It makes sense that this conductive stuff would keep a charge from building up.

Rick

[Finless]

The 450 doesn't show anything on the boom because as some have said it is electrically connected to the frame and thus cannot build up a potential.

Interesting about the main gears! Because they are spinning through the air they are building up a charge. Possible that on the 500 this is also transferring to the boom through the tail drive gear.

Also guys be carefiul about thinking that just moving the RX to the bottom try will keep an arc from effecting the system. It can arc to a wire passing by the area! Like a gyro or servo wire. This is why some report tail kicks rather than shut downs!

Also I believe Kevin had his RX on the middle tray not on the bottom!


As for that other video I assume that is Aberdeen again? The tool he is using picks up RF and hell yes a boom is going to act like an antenna and pick up radio waves and such... Just another attempt to discredit all the folks here sharing info and shows he clearly doesn't know what the heck he is doing. His video proves absolutely nothing except he doesn't know how to use his tool ;)

Also I guess this picture showing a ARC on a Mikado heli isn't proof enough for him? I guess he has been into helis long enough to argue with people that MAKE RC Helis?

Your right Jesse... He needs to go and play with his hand puppet ;)

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38417&d=1202864966

Bob

[cmb2003svt]

You guys see this...? :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XNSfrUg-M4

What an (insert expletive)! He just won't give up. If he thinks these things you guys are doing is wrong, why doesn't he just move on and forget about us?
I understand probably half of the high tech mumbo jumbo that has been going on with the fixes to the ESD. All i can say is that i am glad everyone here is respectful regardless of how much knowledge one has or contributes. Arberdeen may be smart, correct, incorrect, better than "Finless and his Puppet Fireup" but that is just wrong to put that on a World Forum. It just shows how childish he is no matter what or what isn't in his head. I am glad the Admins did what they did because it is the right thing to do. I would rather shave with a dull knife before a vasectomy then to listen to his comments. Then again, I am contributing by replying.

[Finless]

BTW Chas... wanted to say GOOD WORK on this!

I am not worried about the main gear but would be interesting if you would ground the boom and front tail pulley and redo the tests. If you can get it to act like the 450 I think the majority of peoples problems would be solved.

Bob

[ChasHeliCop]

Give me just a few more minutes, processing new video now on you tube.... it gets more interesting. And Thanks ! :hug:

[warpspeed]

Then again, I am contributing by replying
That's ok-trust me, we all feel the same way. The guy's like a bad skidmark you can't get rid of no matter how much bleach you use.

Anyway, back on topic. How is it that the gears are generating so much juice? Is nylon conductive?

[ChasHeliCop]

Anyway, back on topic. How is it that the gears are generating so much juice? Is nylon conductive?

Warpspeed, What made me think about this is common sense. When do you have the most static discharge as a human ? You know, shocking people when you touch them. It's when you walk across carpet in a dry environment. Most carpets were made from nylon that caused static, it kinda made sense.

[ChasHeliCop]

Ok, here's the 450 video and I made one of the 500, but it's going to be about an hour to upload to You tube...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEr9ARJXwnY

vEr9ARJXwnY

[rdlohr]

Possible that on the 500 this is also transferring to the boom through the tail drive gear.

Bob

We can easily prove/disprove this by disconnecting the tail belt and rerunning the test.
Rick

Note: I have no idea what Aberdeen was doing in that video. I can't see how it applies at all. ChasHeliCop is right on track here!

[rdlohr]

Also guys be carefiul about thinking that just moving the RX to the bottom try will keep an arc from effecting the system. It can arc to a wire passing by the area! Like a gyro or servo wire. This is why some report tail kicks rather than shut downs!

Also I believe Kevin had his RX on the middle tray not on the bottom!



Bob

I'm in complete agreement. Even if we could get the receiver into a sweet spot, any wires going into it can inject the noise and the wires go right through the ESD. We need to limit the ESD buildup.

Rick

[Finless]

Chas.... not understanding I guess. The last video what did you do? Just lube the main gear? If so with what?

Bob

[rdlohr]

Chas.... not understanding I guess. The last video what did you do? Just lube the main gear? If so with what?

Bob
He put on antistatic spray. I wonder how long that lasts and if there are any residual problems with doing that.

Rick

[ChasHeliCop]

Oops, sorry Bob, I forgot. I used the common household "Anti-static Spray" you buy in the grocery store. Just did this to show it is indeed static and the gear are emitting the static. The 500 video loading is much better, but it's 140 mb.... It's going to take a while.

[rdlohr]

Oops, sorry Bob, I forgot. I used the common household "Anti-static Spray" you buy in the grocery store. Just did this to show it is indeed static and the gear are emitting the static. The 500 video loading is much better, but it's 140 mb.... It's going to take a while.


I know you did that for giggles, but maybe it is a viable fix if it lasts and has not detrimental side affects. I've head of people lubing their belts everytime they go fly. A simple spray of this stuff periodically may do the trick.

Rick

[rdlohr]

Warpspeed, What made me think about this is common sense. When do you have the most static discharge as a human ? You know, shocking people when you touch them. It's when you walk across carpet in a dry environment. Most carpets were made from nylon that caused static, it kinda made sense.

LOL. Sometimes common sense isn't common. I never considered the gears.
Rick

[ChasHeliCop]

Since I have to wait for the 500 vid to upload, I am going to go out and fly a couple of packs and come back to tesst it after flying, let's see what happens. :thumbup: