View Full Version : Pantera 50, Raptor 50, or TREX600N for a first Nitro??

02-16-2008, 09:32 PM
Which do you feel would be better as a FIRST nitro helicopter?

Pantera 50
Raptor 50

02-25-2008, 08:05 PM
Depends on a few things. Primarily what do other pilots in your area fly and what parts do your LHS stock the most of. Any of the three will do fine. The Pantara is the toughest out of the bunch. Trex is faster but fragile and "cheapish". Raptor is good all around but becoming "dated".

04-04-2009, 04:32 PM
This is actually a fair assesment, which coincides with our experience. Ask a Pantera customer what he thinks because he's voted with his wallet and can explain without blowing smoke up your skirt. Alternatively, read material on our website, which is as fair as I can make it consistent with the realization it is our website, capiche? Moreover, there are product comparisons as well.

This link opens in the Overview tab.
Pantera 50 - overview- http://www.genesishobby.com/Products/AUD22601/Default.aspx

04-04-2009, 04:54 PM
I run 2 Panteras myself. Great birds, you can set the head up easy hovering or move a few things and she comes to life with quick responce, with no extra parts to get. Also it a a easy bird ot work on.

Plus there is one heck of a sale on them right now too.

I have only had Hawks and Panteras, never tried the others.

The Dude II
04-04-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm biased...but experienced somewhat with both others here.

IF we are just talking the kits with equal electronics (but good) I'd go with the Pantera 50 #1, then the Raptor 50 and finally the Trex 600N.

Reasoning: For a "first" nitro-heli-experience...I'd like a machine that's

stable out of the box...almost hands-off hovering once trimmed & balanced
tracks well in forward flight
Tunable...meaning as skills progress, the head system can be "tuned" to be more responsive to meet the growing skill set
simple setup and little preventive maintenance needed to keep it flying.

The two plastic framed helis here build true & strong, simply.

The Stock raptor hovers and flies slowly well but once you get into FFF we ran into issues with the heli "wandering" a bit. Our solution was to add a KASAMA head (~$200) and tune it to a mild 3D setting. The Raptor with the wild 3D Kasama setup was indeed fast on the cyclic...but we lost the locked in, "tracked like it was on rails" that the Pantera head always gives. The mild-3d setting was a good compromise...tracks pretty well and still has fairly aggressive cyclic rates.

The Trex 600N is a FAST 3D machine. The out-of-the box config is pretty much an intermediate skill level machine. I'd be very cautious about recommending it to someone new to "50-class" helis...unless they just had tons of aggressive airplane/modeling experience. A 600N wants to 3D...and hard.

It's funny, we think that all helis of a given class, say 50-size, should all handle (read as fly) the same ...be able to perform all aspects of rotary flight with the same grace, speed & agility. Reality is they don't.

To make some airplane comparisons...some helis resemble trainers...designed to be stable & predictable for the novice.

Others are like pattern ships...they carve out loops & rolls and graceful aerobatics.

Then others are like 3D profile planes...not graceful & precise when they go fast...but boy can they do some WILD moves once your start hanging on the prop or get into a high-alpha flight envelope.

Honestly, the Pantera 50 excels as an advancing(tunable) trainer, is rock-solid in aerobatic flight and can 3D too...but just not quite as quickly as say a 600N setup to pulverize air molecules.

04-06-2009, 08:36 PM
I think you could have great flying with the Pantera. It is a fun build and flys great.
Parts are just a phone call or click away.

04-29-2009, 08:24 AM
I say all three!!!

I think you also run into a bit of bias andywhere you post up a poll like this. If you were to post the same thing in the T-rex forum, the Pantera would probably get blown out of the water!

I myself am biased towards Compass models for many of my own reasons, so it would be kind of unfair if I went slathering on about it here. Honestly, I just started looking at the Pantera for a friend of mine, and it really seems to be a good, middle of the road type heli. Not that great, but definately not that bad. It's durable, flies well enough, and is relatively untouchable in (initial) price. Of course there are downsides to every heli. The big ones facing the Pantera from my standpoint is weight (let's face it, she's no ballerina!), lack of local support/prolific knowledge of the heli, very few shops carry parts (or not many that I can find so far), and it's not exactly the best looking heli on the market IMO (of course that is completely subject to opinion!).

Will the Pantera make a great beginner/intermediate/advanced heli--sure! I have no reason to believe it can't be any of those things. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's a single heli in the 50 range that can truly be considered all that bad nowadays, but it also means that it will probably not be the best at a few things. As with any design, it can either be the jack of all trades/master of none, or it will be the master of one and the rest be undone! Just a little food for thought...

04-29-2009, 09:44 AM
Wait a minute . . . weight??? She's llighter than the new Raptor 50, as well as the Vibe 50 and Sceadu 50. To my certain knowledge, only the 600N is lighter.

04-29-2009, 01:19 PM
The Knight 3D, the Raven 50, and I believe the Caliber 5 are all lighter (don't quote me on the Cal 5 though!). There are a couple others out there that are lighter than the Trex as well (however, seeing these are the only ones I know of, we'll leave it at that). The Ely-Q Vision is certainly one of the lightest in the bunch tip-toeing in at a very svelt 6.6lbs. For a whole $20 more than the the Pantera, you get one sexy and mean looking heli, it features direct to swash ECCPM (like the Raven heli) which eliminates even more linkages, is capable of slinging the same 620mm blades, comes with a metal swash plate and head block (which I agree are good to have in metal due to wear characteristics) and is an extremely capable flier (I know because I've seen them hammered around pretty dang hard in person!).

Another thing to consider is aerodynamics. If you have a relatively 'large' bird, it has a much higher drag co-efficient than a slimmer model (hence why the Avant Aurora and the Synergy N9 are both considered excellent 3D designs). Without comparing mechanical designs (which we know the Aurora as a few let downs in this dept.), having the slim design alows the heli's motor to use more of it's power to fly it around, rather than get wasted trying to wash over the canopy. This is where the Knight, Vibe 50, and Ely-Q really start to shine. They have slicked out designs and are made 100% with 3D flying in mind (Plus the Knight can take one heck of a beating without it costing a fortune to fix). So 3D flying isn't what every pilot ever dreams of doing, but what's the point of advertising a heli's 3D prowess if that didn't matter right?

Sure you could slap in that 90 size motor into the Pantera, but then you eliminate all the great aspects of a 50 size to begin with--longer flight times, less fuel consumption, cheaper parts, less mass/AUW, etc... Also, simply using brute strength is not a very good measure of the heli's capabilities. Anyone could stuff a 90 in their machine and call it amazing because any heli would be a dang gorilla doing so. Fun nonethelss, but nothing screams "Red-neck engineering" worse than the idea of modding a 50 to take a 90 (Bust out the duct-tape Delmer!!!). You might as well just fork out the few extra dollars to get a nice 90 and not have to deal with wierd parts combos (because you can't fly the 90 motor without mods of some sort).

To me, if you want to fly the Pantera, I say go for it. It's a very affordable design (although a few of the spares are a bit on the pricey side), it's a tank no doubt and good for newbs, and it's a great learning platform just like a lot of the other 50 size machines, but I find it a tough argument that it's hands-down better than a lot of the other designs on the market (especially If you're looking for performance later down the road once you've learned how to get past hovering and basic orientations). I'm not trying to slanderize the heli in any way, but some of the claims made on the site are bit aloof, but based on solid ides so they carry some merit. I would, however, love to be proven wrong. Despite what I say about the other brands out there, I'm always rooting for the underdog to come out and impress the heck out of myself and others in the crowd. My Knight certainly did that for me and so did the Ely-Q, so if the Pantera is packing the gears that some of the owners (& John) are claiming, then it should stand to reason this heli more than deserves it's place in the market. The main thing that keeps me from being a true believer is that the heli has been around for what, 3 years now? Where's the growing following? If the heli sold itself like my Knight, I wouldn't have to ask such questions.

04-29-2009, 08:33 PM
Well, I'm part of that "growing" following and don't in the least consider myself a "redneck". You say you don't mean to slander however your tone is a bit condescending. I also think you missed the point of being able to do a BBC conversion in the first place. Your opinions are welcomed but I just find it hard to fathom that someone (short of Szabo status) can tell the difference in aerodynamic efficiency short of having a 2X4 for a canopy. But hey, I'm still new to this great hobby and so far I haven't used a single strip of duct tape yet on any of my 4 helis.


04-29-2009, 08:42 PM
I belive a new canopy is in works for the Pantera. I have photos (he he).
Blistering fast in all modes of flight.

04-30-2009, 12:38 AM
I also think you missed the point of being able to do a BBC conversion in the first place. Your opinions are welcomed but I just find it hard to fathom that someone (short of Szabo status) can tell the difference in aerodynamic efficiency short of having a 2X4 for a canopy. But hey, I'm still new to this great hobby and so far I haven't used a single strip of duct tape yet on any of my 4 helis.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to sound durrogatory about it, but there were a few things that came across as oversensationalized in the ad campaign and I wanted to address them as I percieved them as being hype (same kind of argumnet I have against Align). We all have our opinions and I respect your thoughts on this heli, but I don't feel I missed the point, rather I find it somewhat pointless. Maybe it makes sense to you, but if the heli flew great without the need for upgrades (as the head honcho claims it to be), why would you have to bother with that big of an upgrade? (90 motors are not cheap, guzzle gas, and require different gearing to make use of it). It's the same mentality as someone buying a Camaro with a V6 in it, adding a turbo, chipping it, milling the head, adding aftermarket cam shafts and still ending up shy of a naturally aspirated V8 motor. It's just plain stupidity! (hence my poke at the redneck engineering). I apologize for being so blunt about it, but that's the way I see it. I just say save it and by a full fledged 90. Don't do it half-a$$ed! There's a guy on the Compass forum trying to do a similar thing with his Knight (90 in a 50). Not that I want to slam dunk the guy for the idea, but what a waste. It just seems very counter-intuitive.

As far as the 2X4 comment, you can't honestly believe that argument stands a chance do you? Try flying with and without your canopy and tell me it feels exactly the same. It doesn't take much beyond a newbie to tell you they are worlds apart and dragging Mr. Szabo into the conversation doesn't help. It's more a matter of simple physics. Will a large, heavy object be as nimble or quick as a slim, light one? Sure! It just depends on how much ENERGY you have to expend to get it to do the same thing. Know what I mean?
That is where my point about efficiency comes in. A bigger, heavier bird will have shorter flight times, can't maneuver as well (energy expenditure already noted), and will generally take on more damage in a crash due to the larger mass. As far as the aerodynamics go, have you ever seen a wind tunnel experiment? That usually explains quite a bit in the first few seconds of going over different objects as to how wind or speed can be affected by the shape or the object. If you're saying that a square block will slip through the air as smoothly or nicely as a bullet shaped object, you may need to get a few facts straightened in your head bro!

04-30-2009, 02:58 AM
Uh, no dude. I have my facts straight. Yes, I have seen a windtunnel test and my point still stands. The 2X4 comment was a figure of speech, not to be take literally for crying out loud! The point I am making is that practically every heli manufacturer out there has a canopy that looks areodynamic enough and that saying a certain brand is better is just an opinion. How in the world do you actually measure it accurately enough to put a number to it? Even just saying that it feels better is totally splitting hairs...in my opinion. You want me to get my head straight? I will if you will.

04-30-2009, 03:42 AM
The 'pupose' of the big block conversion was actually the guys living in mountain high country because the density loss issue is so very real for them as to need a solution. Simply put, at 5000 feet of altitude, an engine doens't make nearly the kind of power it does at sea level. Anyway, 'this' is what I originally had in mind.

That said, knowing folks love flying with excess power (me especially), working to stuff a big engine into the Pantera didn't seem out of reach, especially because another thought I had in the back of mind at the time were the many, many folks with an OS61SX or 70SZ laying around left over from a 91 upgrade. The fact is these engines make 'far' more torque than any 50 on the planet (and torque is what makes things happen). Also, and not unexpectedly, folks at lower altitudes 'discovered' the BBC as well. Grated, a 91 is overkill, but it works as well - quite well in fact - and is a tremendous giggle maker.

Ultimately, while I understand your scepticism (after all the advertising is expressly designed to sell products and it's healthy to question things), the fact is it's fun to fly my 50 with scads of torque. That's really the only purpose - fun! Until you try one it's hard to understand the, "Why" Consequently, you'll just have to take it on faith until you experience it. Moreover, it's not like I make it expensive to find out for yourself, eh? After all, the very purpose of my promotional buy one get another for 50% off camapign is to make it 'very' easy for folks to try my product.

In closing, I hope you notice, there's not a lot of complaining about my product, which is perhaps the strongest endorsement you can hope to garner from this kind of source. Especially since folks are generally pretty quick to piss and moan if something's wrong. Moreover, I'm active online as I both try to head off problems and try to learn what's on my customer's minds. Many customers find this is beneficial.

Finally, my Pantera is, simply put, a very solid and dependable model helicopter. It's easy to build and repair, strong, flies well, and constitutes a 'fair' deal and overall represents good value. If I go over the top in promoting it, please try not to hold it against my product because by education I am an engineer and teacher, not a marketing type. Consequently, I may make many mistakes in this area but believe me, I am doing the best I can and not trying to deceive anybody.

My 2

04-30-2009, 06:13 PM
The 2X4 comment was a figure of speech, not to be take literally for crying out loud! The point I am making is that practically every heli manufacturer out there has a canopy that looks areodynamic enough and that saying a certain brand is better is just an opinion.
Hehe....I know it was a joke, and my response was just a mirror of your humor. No offense intended! My reference to the aerodynamics is more about the overall size, not exactly the shape alone. As my reference, I'd like to point out a Century Hawk Pro. It's a large, heavy, clunky bird. Even with an OS 37 stuffed into it, it flies like an absolute boat. I've seen guys put them through their paces, but not without sweating the whole way through it. With the large canopy, a lot of downward force is canceled because of the large, wide canopy. This was my concern for the Pantera or any 50 size heli (I know, apples-oranges comparison because of 30 to 50 size). When compared to almost any other 30 size though, none of them flew with as much difficulty as the Hawk. See where I'm going with that? I'm not trying to claim that any one manufacturer is necessarily better on opinion alone, but rather from a purely physics standpoint they can better the flight characteristics of the heli. The point about flyinf with/without the canopy was to point out the difference the canopy can make. It will still fly well without it of course, but it definately pulls a little differently without it.

Anyway, 'this' is what I originally had in mind.
[sic]Grated, a 91 is overkill, but it works as well - quite well in fact - and is a tremendous giggle maker.
Until you try one it's hard to understand the, "Why" Consequently, you'll just have to take it on faith until you experience it.
. . . folks are generally pretty quick to piss and moan if something's wrong. Moreover, I'm active online as I both try to head off problems and try to learn what's on my customer's minds.
Fair enough as well. My redneck comment was a a bit below the belt I suppose, and I fully understand what the intent was on intsalling the bigger motor. The fact that it's possible is cool, but I'm of the impression that today's motors produce plenty enough power to do 3D even at altitude.
I fully intend to try this heli out seeing my buddy is getting one himself, so I hope to get a little bit of "why" answered for myself. As I said before, I like to prove myself wrong, and that is how I ended up with my current choice of helis I own now. That doesn't mean I'm not on the lookout for the next best thing though!!!
I definately get you on this point. Even when things are going just fine, I think people like to nag about stuff just because. I definately salute you in your support of the heli and I respect the guys that take the critisizm and fly the 'no-name' brands anyways. I'm loking forward to trying this heli out myself pretty soon here, and I'd like to be welcome back to share my comments if that's cool with you guys. Cheers!

04-30-2009, 08:43 PM
I'd like to point out a Century Hawk Pro. It's a large, heavy, clunky bird. Even with an OS 37 stuffed into it, it flies like an absolute boat.

What the?? Hawk pro heavy? With a 37 even??

Here is a fact for you since you brought up the Century helis, My Ravens and all the Hawk 30s I have ever setup or heard about have NEVER been boat like.
I live at 5500 feet above sea level and the only 30 size that consistantly flies with any power is a hawk sport with a old OS 32. Only a raptor 30 with TT39 comes close.
I have a xcell 30 with a OS 37 and it deffinatly handles its business in this 7+ lbs classic heli. If I had a hawk sport to put this engine in, it would be a hot rod as all the hawkers with Toki 40s will tell you.

Beside I havent EVER seen another 50 stand up to Audacity's or Century's quality or value for dollar.
Compass or Align aren't even in the same league as a Pantera or Raven.

If I want quick wearing parts or shoddy bearings Im sure I can find a Align/compass heli cheap though.

04-30-2009, 09:06 PM
I learned how to fly a chopper using a Nija Pro. It did fly and all was good before the 3D buz hit 20 years ago.
I got back into the mix 3 years ago and with all the neet stuff that has hit the market, I parked my planks. I still had some issues with power and a 50 size bird. The Tiger and Pantera sporting a 50 hyper and tuned pipe made me stick with the game. The high end EVO90 that I fly is spendy but fun as well.
Our group of crazys love to fly in the rain and snow down to sub zero temps in the winter. Something was missing. When I went to a fun fly at zero MLS the Pantera was a blast. It almost made me soil my pants. I now understand how well this ship is on the cutting edge. Then the BBC mod hit my door. Now I can have just as much fun at my local flying field (I fly two fields, one at 2700 MSL and another at 6400 MSL) without the drive to all of your troglights fields at sea level.
Thanks JB. I may sport a 80 in a 50 class ship. But up in my ear popping world. I can fly 3d and just have fun.

05-01-2009, 03:25 AM
What the?? Hawk pro heavy? With a 37 even??

Compass or Align aren't even in the same league as a Pantera or Raven.

If I want quick wearing parts or shoddy bearings Im sure I can find a Align/compass heli cheap though.

If it's not heavy, then what would you call it? A 7-9 pound .30 size heli is not exactly what I would consider a light machine by any standard. Maybe the 37's you guys use in your helis does a better job than the one my buddies have in theirs, but the ones I've seen make less power than the 32's. And just so we're not getting carried away with ourselves in these conversations, I'm not claiming to be a big heli guru of any type and I'm better than anyone else. I'm just telling it like I've seen it and experienced it myself. Your experience with the same heli will probably vary to some degree, but most of mine have been pretty negative with the Hawk. It's expensive and a complete PITA to repair. It feels heavy in the air and it's slow to do maneuvers (not that any 30 size heli is all that nimble to begin with).
Now that's not to say they're not capable of doing more--I've seen them do way better-- they just simply didn't work so well for me. I do agree with you on the parts quality, even though it comes at a pretty stiff price. They're not durable at all in a crash, so 9 times out of 10 you can't even have a tipoever without it costing you about $100.

I guess that'd depend on what you classify as a league. The Ely-Q Vision is pretty much the same design concept as the Raven, so in that respect, yes they are different because of their overall mechanical setup. As far as flying maneuvers, I honestly can't comment besides the fact that the Ely-Q does fly nice and the Raven probably flies similar to it.
The Aligns can considerably be considered different or lesser, but you might want to check yourself on the Knight facts. Look at the head stuff. The Knight and Pantera both have pretty much the same designs on the head (which are nothing more than modified Hirobo's) so I don't believe that you are basing your argument on the fact that you've flown both and can offer a sound comparison of the two.
The things that I'm basing my thoughts on (about the Pantera likely not being as good of a flier) are the fact that the Pantera is almost a full pound heavier than my Knight and it's a much larger heli in stature which would cause it to have more drag. Maybe these two things are not enough to make that big of a difference and why I made my statement (back on post #9) " I would, however, love to be proven wrong." If you'd carefully read what I had to say, I was sharing my thoughts about it and that's all they were....thoughts. If you took it as a slap in the face that's your problem dude!

No arguments with the Align stuff being crappy. That's the exact reason I landed on Compass models. Align failed me one time too many and I went looking for something better. The Knight was my answer and I've been nothing but happy with it since. They hold up great in crashes and are made with damn good materials. They definatley don't shatter like some like to claim of G10 or CF and quite frankly look a lot nicer than plastic (also tend to be much lighter too!). I did not intend for this to become a big shootout between what heli is the 'best'. There's really no such thing anymore and I can say that with all honesty because there's not a one of us on these forum boards that can outfly any of these helis. It's all a matter of preference. Some like it heavy, some like it light. Some like big helis, others like small ones. Some can fly with minimal amounts of power, others couldn't fly if you gave them a nuclear reactor onboard to power the sucker! It's all subjective.

I'll have my chance to try out a Pantera pretty quick here and I'll let you guys know what I think then. I'll have actually tried both, instead of making off the wall comments that one is way better than the other without real proof like you are doing. Before you respond with something to the effect that this is what I've done myself, I already said that these were my thoughts and beliefs, not cold hard facts.
If that doesn't sound fair enough, I'll simply disdain from acknowledging any further comments from you and we'll go on living our happy lives as if we'd never exchanged views to begin with. I apologize to others for railroading the thread if this is the case. I wish the best for anyone else reading it and happy flyng!

05-01-2009, 10:14 AM
I don't take this thread as railroading and don't think anyopne else will either. Frankly, it's to be expected this will happen (thread drift) when it's a subjective discourse, e.g. a matter of opinion versus something, which can be measured.

As for the Hawk, it's my view they fly pretty well. I had one until about three years ago at which point I gave it to a friend for his nephew because it was gathering dust. Despite also giving him a training gear 'and' the use of my sim for a few weeks, he soon crashed it and the repair bill came to about $130 so they haven't fixed it. Nevertheless, despite being an old design, they fly OK, and I have seen some 3D pretty darn impressively.

The Knights are OK as well, but in common with other composite construction machines like Vibe, 600N, etc. just too complicated for my tastes. More than once I have approached the idea of a composite Pantera and shied away because it's just fundamentally not the way I want to take my business. This despite this type of machine being pretty simple to produce (a plastic machine involves a ton of engineering, molds, etc. while a flat plate and block heli can nearly be prototyped with hand tools). We actually prototype using flat plate and blocks but instead of stopping there, we go all the way through to molded production. Eyeball these pics to get an idea of what I am talking about.

05-01-2009, 11:01 AM
That's really cool to know John. You don't get much of any manufacturers actually online chatting it up about their helis, so I give you big kudos for that. I kinda wish I'd found the Pantera sooner myself and we probably wouldn't have had any kind of argument then! lol I'll probably be putting the two Panteras on order sometime today seeing I have nothing better to do. I'm looking forward to getting my mitts on them and having a go-over with my friend. He certainly feels he's getting the best heli his money can buy and I'm getting more and more inclined to agree.

I've long argued with the Align guys that plastic models really aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be (my biggest argument against it usually ends up being weight or crash durabilty [which the Pantera does not sound like it's suffering from!]). Of course when you combine Align's crappy QA and terrible plastic material, it's no wonder their original designs left so much to be desired! Maybe it was all part of their marketing scheme??? I personally like the idea of NEVER having to 'upgrade' a heli (I've argued this relentlessly for a long time now!) so the idea of having yet another heli that boasts the same quality as my Knight is very appealing to me. Another good thing is that you guys will be getting a no-nonsense opinion from me once I get the two side-by-side. I pry myself on keeping things apples-to-apples when I dig into a review, so I hope my credibility will lend itself some assurance to you (or any of your customers/my fellow pilots) when I do post up any comments. If you'd like an example, check out my thread in the T-450 section about ceramic bearings: Ceramic bearings good enough?......You bet!!! - HeliFreak
It's quite a long winded conversation, but well worth the read if you have the patience!

05-01-2009, 03:27 PM
No one is offended here I appreciate your veiws.

I have been a Century flyer for many years and I think your in left field with your hawk comments.

I'll retract my Compass statement as I havent seen one up close. I do like some features they offer. They must have sacrificed weight drastically as everyone says the Align helis are light. My pantera wont be far off from them, nor is my Raven a porker either. Suits me.

Way too many 2 gal experts putting too much importance on lightweight helis that compromise on more important features. No saying you Skunk as ya seem to have your act together... but alot of others especially on RR...

Like the whole Tx latency issue, some guy posts a test showing each brands latency and suddenly everyone can "FEEL" the micro second difference like they are sponsored pros. Ick!!... Too many heli folks are just following the latest fads. The marketing hacks love them for it.

I really do love my Century Ravens, but it is like ya said Skunkworx a PITA to work on, though I have the technique down.

JB and his pantera really understands what a great 50 heli should be! I wish I found him earlier because I now have Panteras that will be easy to fix and setup. I'm goin to fly the piss out of my Audacity twins and not be scared of the setup bench anymore!

I'll let others fly the extra bling on their 50s. Not me Im past that stage. I'll do it on my latency queen 9CHP tx! How ya'll like that, all the 2 gallon sponsored pros out there?

05-02-2009, 01:58 AM
I have been a Century flyer for many years and I think your in left field with your hawk comments.

Well....like I said, I have seen them fly pretty well. I just couldn't get much out of them personally. :arggg: Maybe it was just a bad setup or something? (bad motor, servos, or mechanical complications. Who knows?)