Slow cyclic on R90 SE?

[jvince]

Hello all. I'm hoping someone with more Raptor experience than I can save me some time experimenting.

I bought a R90 SE semi-used (partially assembled), which I tore down and rebuilt by the book with the exception the optional gear set (proper gear ratio for the C-Spec).It flies OK, has great collective and tail response, but the roll rate is painfully slow compared to my Ergo 90 or even Ergo z230. I've got slightly more elevator speed, but still very slow. Collective and engine power is about perfect (aside from slipping clutch on final flight that I need to replace and properly gap), so I don't think I have a power issue.

My R90 SE is built entirely stock. The manual suggests using the outer hole on the see-saw along with the optional flybar control arms (PV0294). Can someone with this optional setup comment on the difference it made in cyclic speed?

I'll admit flybar/paddle tuning is still a bit of a black art for me. I did notice that compared to my Ergo the distance from the center of the main shaft to the tip of the paddle is about 2cm (almost an inch) shorter. Would a longer flybar increase the roll rate?

Finally, I'm using the stock paddles. I usually associate paddles with stability/sensitivity not over all travel and ratre, but would lighter or more aggressive paddles actually make a difference in roll and flip rate?

I've tried a few sets of blades from 710mm TT, to 700mm NHP Razors right down to 690mm. The roll and flip rate is slower than I'd like all the blades I tried.

Can someone using their R0 SE for 3d point me the right direction for better cyclic response?

thanks

[ferincr]

I'm just another new/learning pilot.
My SE has +11-11 on collective and +-7 on cyclic.
I don't know how other helis perform but my SE was quite slow on cyclic
I used 710 TT blades mostly and now I just put a set of Radix 710s and all I can say is WoW!!!! last Sunday I was doing rolls really fast (or at least a lot faster than I used to with the TT blades) and after I landed I realized I did it without getting into D/R!!!! (I was using single rate only (I have it set at 60% on single and 100% in D/R).
I even had to modify the Throttle curve in normal because the heli starts to get light on the skids as soon as the gov. kicks in.
Let's see what the real pilots advice you with but I never thought blades would make that much difference.

Longer flybar increases cyclic response but less stable hover
Lighter paddles same as above

Shorter fly bar more stable hover but less responsive in cyclic
Heavier paddles same as above
And then you have the different combinations of all of the above

[Raven_darkcloud]

If ya got the black lumps called paddles then switch them out for the light ones (red or blue) and you will get faster cyclic.

[ferincr]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that...
I tossed the black plastic paddles long ago!
Since I always keep a nice stock of broken blades:roll: I made CF paddles out of them (they are about 18gr) slightly lighter than the red ones.

[Kinger]

Without a doubt, ditch those black paddles. Throw on a set of TT Reds/Blues, some 95 to 105mm V paddles or a set of Curtis super stubz. That will get the roll rate up there for certain. You might also want to modify your mixing arms via the Colin Bell mod.

[invrtd]

Can you share some info on the mod or a link to the mod?

[jvince]

Thanks for the tips. I think I'll start with the paddles, that's a pretty safe and cheap bet (compared to optional mixing levers etc). I do run a set of very light SAB CF paddles on my Ergo (I found them years ago, haven't seen another set since). I've tried different blades, and although better it wasn't quite what I'm looking for.

I'll ask Google about the Colin Bell mod, sometimes just knowing what to ask makes all the difference.

Thanks all
jeff

[Ah Clem]

I have been flying the Raptor 90 3D with the stock (Blue, lilght weight) paddles and Radix 690 main blades.

These paddles are lighter than the stock, black paddles that come with the SE. The flybar ratio is different on the 3D than the 90. Rate of roll is very fast, especially for something that large. I have not flown the SE, but the slow rate of roll has been commented on before.

As others have mentioned, change the paddles first. You might also want to explore the flybar ratio, if the paddle change does not provide the response you desire (if memory serves, you will need to change the see-saw, the flybar control arms, and the flybar to upgrade to the 3D flybar).

I feel compelled to correct something that someone said above:

"Longer flybar increases cyclic response but less stable hover"

This is not correct. A longer flybar, with the same paddles, will increase the stability in the hover and the speed of the response. The paddles are traveling faster, being further out from the center of the rotor disc, and the increased speed will provide a faster response. They also have greater leverage, being further from the hub, to tilt the flybar assembly. The greater centripetal force from their moving faster, will also increase the stability (i.e. given no control input, the flybar will have a greater resistance to tilting).

Response and stability are two different things. You can have a very responsive, yet very stable helicopter, or a very slow responding, unstable helicopter (the latter is not desireable).

A shorter fly bar will, generally, provide a less stable hover and decrease the cyclic response, providing a less locked in feel.

Lighter paddles will reduce the stability and increase the response to some extent, but a large, thick, light paddle can give you a great deal of stability and a smooth, firm response, while a thin light paddle of similar weight can give you a less stability and a sharp, quick response.

Heavier paddles slow the response and increase the stability.

All of these are generalities. Head RPM, Bell/Hiller mixing ratio, blade type, blade airfoil, blade CG, etc. also all are part of this.

[ColinB]

The R90 3D mixers (PV0601) will give you more collective and cyclic pitch. You'll either have to sand a little off the long side of the mixer, or flip your flybar control arms around and use washers to space the ball out for the oval link.

Colin

[jvince]

Perfect. Thanks guys. I picked up a set of red TT paddles today and have a set of Super Stubz somewhere between PEI (my fav hobby shop is out there) and my place now. I'll keep whichever works better on the R90 and use the others to liven up my z230.

Thanks for the tip on the mixers, I'll look at that next. I don't mind spending a few bucks on parts, but its always nice to know where to invest to get the best result.

[ferincr]

I feel compelled to correct something that someone said above:

"Longer flybar increases cyclic response but less stable hover"
Ooooppsss!!!!
I guess I have to plead guilty on that one!:o:oops:
Sorry I never mean to give wrong info (that's the rason I normally don't post any advice since I'm still in the first stages of the learning process).
But I was quite sure I have read that several times, I guess I misunderstood it.
Sorry again,
Fernando

[Ah Clem]

Fernando,

Not a problem. I don't think any of us would knowingly post bad or incorrect information.

I have read it several times also, on various forums.

It gets posted occasionally, but is still incorrect.


I hope that I did not offend.

[ferincr]

Not at all.
I thing wrong info (on purpose or not) should be corrected right on spot to avoid people make unnecessary mistakes.

[jvince]

Just to close the loop (for anyone who cares) here's what I found.

I changed the stock paddles out for a set of red TT paddles. It made a decent difference, not everything I was looking for but certainly faster aileron and elevator. I didn't feel I lost much stability in this change. The elevator rate was much better than aileron (this has always been the case)

I then swapped out the servo horn on the aileron servo. The manual's recommendation is a good starting point but I got quite a bit more throw from a longer horn. Took some trial and error (only a bit) to get the max length that keeps my servo throw between 100 and 125% (I have a JR radio) and didn't bind the head at extreme throws. This change made a really big difference. I added a little expo (about 30%) to smooth it out around mid stick.

I then swapped out the red paddles for a set of Curtis super stubs. That lit 'er up! I increased the expo to 45% and went expo/lin on my 10x (soft to about 45% then aggressive to 100% throw). The combination of ss paddles and maximizing the servo throw has solved my issue, in that the R90 cyclic now feels correct (to me anyhow). The new paddles did make the R90 a little less stable, it actually only really shows up when inverted it tends to be very responsive to cyclic inputs (not twitchy, but quick). That's what I wanted, but may not be for everyone.

I'll likely still test Colin's modification just to see how it changes the feel (I've never experimented with mixing ratios before)

thanks for the help guys

[Walker76]

Great info guy's. I'm going to put some Stubbz on my machine too. I'm also struggling with slow cyclic speed. Thank's a lot.