View Full Version : Another - Whadda Ya Think? Thread...
x RayoVac x
03-05-2008, 04:32 PM
Hey Guys,
I am new to HeliFreak and new to the sport. About 20 years ago I was into RC, but just on 4 wheels. I have always wanted to fly helicopters... and finally got bit by the bug. I have been learning on Phoenix with a 9303. I have the 9303 tx and the 921 rx.
I originally thought I would purchase a Trex 450 SE V2. The more I thought about it, the more I wanted a 600 E. I think bigger would be better as my eyes are not as great as they were when I was younger and I think a bigger bird would be easier to see.
I started looking at the Mikado stuff... and now here I am. My questions:
Is it "silly" for a total n00b to consider starting with a 600 3D or 500 3D? I am thinking 3D model because I am a freak for upgrades... might as well start it off right. To keep the cost down I would go with the Flybar. My sim flying is more of a sport style and long flight time interests me. This makes me think the 500 with 6S would be a better fit. I am also interested in some AP down the road... would I be limited by the 500?
I understand that Logo parts are going to be harder to find and more expensive then the Align stuff... but I am O.K. with that. This will be my ONLY heli, knowing that ... the thought of getting a 450 SE V2 to learn on then picking up a Logo later is unrealistic at best (all this has to be agreeable with my wife).
Am I foolish to want to start with a Logo? Should I just get a Align 600 instead? Very confused and looking for direction and experience.
Thanks,
Rayo
How are you planning to learn?
A few logo crashes would pay for a T-Rex 450, so I would still go that route. Also, airtime is important and for the price of a single logo battery you could buy about 6 decent T-Rex packs, each of which would give you more flight time than the Logo. When you get confident with that, think about a logo 600.
I taught myself how to fly on a 450, and crashed a fair amount. There are people who have learned to fly to a decent level - generally with an instructor/buddy cable - and who profess never to have crashed. I believe some of them, but I think they're in the minority.
K
get a logo and dont look back, they are that good!
if you are looking at AP, then the 600 is worth it for the extra stability, but both are awesome machines which i am sure you would love
Ian
Finsta
03-05-2008, 06:40 PM
Here is my opinion. I would go for the Logo. Now the advice about the 450 is indeed true, good to learn on, but the 500 will be easier to fly by nature, thus less likely hood of a crash. To put things into perspective, I have a 600 and just a week ago picked up a Logo 500 3D. I was blown away at how cool a heli it is and mostly at how simple it is. I will hang onto one 600, but I am going 98% Logo. I think you would be making a smart move. 450 is a nice machine, but a littler harder to work on cause it is small. Logo is so well laid out, I was blown away when I got it. Now you can like most of us, have a 450, 600 and a logo (or any combo of multiple helis).
x RayoVac x
03-05-2008, 06:44 PM
How are you planning to learn?
A few logo crashes would pay for a T-Rex 450, so I would still go that route. Also, airtime is important and for the price of a single logo battery you could buy about 6 decent T-Rex packs, each of which would give you more flight time than the Logo. When you get confident with that, think about a logo 600.
I taught myself how to fly on a 450, and crashed a fair amount. There are people who have learned to fly to a decent level - generally with an instructor/buddy cable - and who profess never to have crashed. I believe some of them, but I think they're in the minority.
K
I guess I thought that a flight Sim was supposed to provide a pretty "near real" experience. So I have been working everyday on the Sim. By the time I actually get a bird, I will have had 3 to 4 months for Sim under my belt.
One thing to consider, if you live in an urban, or semi-urban area...
I have to guerilla fly...
I sneak into empty parks and soccer fields that city code says I'm not allowed to fly at, fly a battery, then flee into the distance...hoping some park services wienie doesn't come shoo me away for getting him in trouble with his boss while he waits four more hours for school to get out and youth soccer to start...
It's a lot easier to do that with my mini titan 325 size, than my logo 500..er... 500 size...
God I'm starting to hate southern california...
Don't judge me... it's an addiction.. :( The nearest legit fields are 30-60 minutes away due to traffic, and I try to fly at lunch... Ahem.. I digress.
Something to think about. Ease of flying space access. Big helis are more of a hassle investment than you may think.
Of course, I didn't see the location on your name before I hit reply, so you may be in Hugefield City USA with wide open spaces.
The OC is no paradise for geeks and helifreaks.
-Aox
I guess I thought that a flight Sim was supposed to provide a pretty "near real" experience. So I have been working everyday on the Sim. By the time I actually get a bird, I will have had 3 to 4 months for Sim under my belt.
They do and they don't. I did the same as you - I could fly pretty well on the sim before I tried to teach myself in real life. It might be that my simulator wasn't up to the standard of the big guns (I use Clearview) but in fact, I crashed on my first outing, then the second, then the third...
I divide my crashes into two types. One is 'dumb thumbs' moments - and I don't have too many of those. Another is 'learning experiences'. For example, one day I landed on some soft ground and one skid got slightly stuck. As I tried to take-off gently, the helicopter tilted and the rotor hit the ground. Now if I'm flying from soft ground I take off smartly to tear free before the rotor has time to tilt. I learned never to land using negative collective, even though this works fine on the simulator it causes a boom-strike every time in real life. I've now learned to land simply by killing power and trying to hold 6" from the ground for as long as possible. This saves a lot of tailbooms. I'm not saying that this is all I've learned by any means - just that the T-Rex is a relatively cheap way to gain this type of experience.
If there's someone who can test-fly the helicopter for you, and who might buddy you for the first few sessions, then by all means go with the Logo - I far prefer it to the T-Rex. But if not, then personally I wouldn't want to learn to fly with one. My simulator is a lot more realistic when it comes to flying than take-off and landing, but when you've got these bits out of the way it really pays dividends.
I suppose my response is tempered by the fact that I'm quite precious about my Logo. I really couldn't afford to crash it regularly and don't take unnecessary risks with it - perhaps this is why I feel slightly green at the idea of learning from scratch on it.
K
BruceW
03-06-2008, 12:50 AM
Here is proof that after spending 4000+;) hours on the sim, you can do this on your third flight...
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=57208
I personally find that the sim is close enough to the flight characteristics and physics of the model to give you enough orientation practice that will transfer over.
Don't judge me...
I fly my T-Rex in a park where I'm not supposed to either - though I've talked to the park keeper and he's fine about it.
The park where I am allowed to fly has a mown landing strip between two well-used public footpaths - one about 50 feet in front of it, and the other about 30 feet behind it. If I lost orientation and let it get too far away it could land on a nearby motorway - though realistically I think this is a greater concern for the r/c planes.
The park where I'm not meant to fly is actually considerably more sensible. There's a football pitch that you can only enter from one end. If I stand at the other end, and fly in front of me then I can see if anybody arrives.
K
LITHIUMSTATIC
03-06-2008, 12:56 AM
Here is proof that after spending 4000+;) hours on the sim, you can do this on your third flight...
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=57208
I personally find that the sim is close enough to the flight characteristics and physics of the model to give you enough orientation practice that will transfer over.
:noteworthy
I guess this means I better buy a sim and use the hell out of it.
Here is proof that after spending 4000+;) hours on the sim, you can do this on your third flight...
Hugely impressive, if you have the time to put in 10 hours/day for over a year (2 hours/day for 5 years etc).
He still learned to hover, and presumably land and take off on a Blade CP though.
K
BruceW
03-06-2008, 01:35 AM
Probably so, but that is impressive to not have the nerves hindering you after only 3 flights on a big 600 nitro.
It's hugely impressive, but what I'm arguing is that a sim works wonders, except for those first few flights where you get to know your model and its flying characteristics.
K
BruceW
03-06-2008, 01:53 AM
:noteworthy
I guess this means I better buy a sim and use the hell out of it.
You don't have a sim? That little red reset button sure saves a lot of money.;)
OICU812
03-06-2008, 03:20 AM
Guys look at this vid of that same guy quite sometime ago, on a plane but if you can 3D a plane like this you should be able to at least do 3D basics on a heli imho.
First plane I picked up I was hovering it on 3rd flight, that does not make me a superstar at all, just makes me able to adopt what I have for other rc skills into something else. Huge Kudos to this guy for doing well, but still if he had ZERO air RC experience prior the level would not be what you see, unless he was a complete natural which there are only a few of, and I am certainly not one of them, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoIFM1F_t9E
At any rate the sim is great, I only have probably 50 uses on it tops, I know I should be on it instead of the forums as well. But I think everyone learns differently. I seem to improve more by watching vids and thinking about flying while I drive, lol. I should use the sim as well though, I am sure it would help some even now.
BruceW
03-06-2008, 11:16 AM
OK, that explains everything now. No wonder he had no jitters.
I haven't flown any 3d planes, but it looks like the stick movements for that rolling high angle of attack remote circle are probably similar to a piro flip.
That's a "rolling harrier" right?
-Aox
How long did it take you to log 4000 hours on the sim ?? I find it hard to believe someone could be in the hobby that long without actually buying the real deal.
x RayoVac x
03-06-2008, 11:07 PM
One thing to consider, if you live in an urban, or semi-urban area...
Luckily I live out in BFE, on a lake. Although it is a typical lake community, I have a large property with lots of farm field just a block from the house. I don't think finding room for a 500 or 600 size will be an issue, nor would I have to employ guerrilla tactics to avoid "the man" as we have no restrictions out here in the county.
My gut is telling me I want to start in "bigger then Trex 450", but maybe from a cost standpoint I should do a 450 SE V2 for my first. Do any of the guys that are "a bit older" have any problem keeping an eye on their 450s, orientation etc.???
I suppose the other upside to starting with a 450 given its significantly lower entry cost, would be I could get a bird in the air sooner.
Given that I already have a RX and TX, could anybody do a quick ballpark on what a 450 SE V2 vs. say the Logo 500 3D (from actual $$$) needed to get it in the air? I assume I would need batteries, charger, power supply for charger, servos, gyro, esc, bec etc. Anybody have a quick ballpark comparison?
LITHIUMSTATIC
03-06-2008, 11:27 PM
I'm a sold out Mikado fan 100% (so don't start throwing stones at me on what I'm about to suggest) If I were you since your just starting out learning to hover I'd buy a Raptor .30 Here are my reasons.
1. Plenty of parts
2. Cheap to repair and you will be doing a lot of this
3. Very stable and smooth flying
4. You get LOTS of flight time in because it's a nitro
5. Lots of help and support because so many people own them
6. It's a tough machine that can take some abuse
Yes you can learn on a Logo 500, but your going to have short flight times. The waiting for the battery to charge between flights isn't fun. Cost to repair in a crash will be much more money than a Raptor .30 For the same price you outfit a nice Trex450V2 you can buy a much larger and more stable bird.
Just my .02
AusAnt
03-06-2008, 11:34 PM
Rayovac,
I went for a 500 3d as my first heli. It is a fantastic learner heli - waaaay more stable than a smaller heli, due to all the obvious mechanical factors, stability in wind, and bigger Reynolds numbers.
So I have absolutely no experience with any other heli, but my opinion is that if you aren't afraid of the cost of the logo, get one. I think I spent in the order of $2,500 all up to get it going with 2 batteries etc, but it's probably not a good idea to keep too close an eye on how much you spend in this hobby! ;)
I spent a few months on the sim first. After 40 or 50 hours sim time, I could confidently do some basic flying, including hovering in all orientations, figure 8's, nos in and tail in circles around myself etc. After that, I got some training gear on the logo, and the logo was easier to fly than the sim! Mind you, it is a little different from looking at a screen, so there was still a learning curve.
I now have about 40 or 50 flights on the logo, and I had one crash at about 30 flights, just after I had taken the training gear off, I was flying at a snowy field. I flew for almost 9 mins, was a bit fatigued (I now do 2 x 4 or 5 min flights on the one pack), and drifted off my landing area and caught one skid on the 4" deep snow and tipped over. I did a lot of damage for such a tiny mishap - cost around $150 for all the head parts, new tail boom etc that I broke.
But if those sort of costs don't really scare you, and you want something well made that flies really well (and I'm guessing will probably crash less), then go for it.
Since getting more confident with my flying, I will now get a smaller heli for small fields, but I'm glad I have learnt on the logo. I think you could have a 450 going for under $1,000, so they are cheap, and they are cheap to repair. But then again, I figured I was buying a heli that flies well, not one that crashes well :YeaBaby:
Ant