Lithium batts as receiver packs

[r2160]

Hi All

Now that my stratus is almost finished, I have been considering using lithiums instead of nicads.

Are many people here using them? Pitfalls?

What is the general consensus with what to use?

I have a couple of lithium chargers (a prolux and a triton) so charging shouldnt be an issue.

Any and ALL advise is more than welcome.

Glenn

[Laurens]

Duralites are lithium batts. Seem to work very well.

[DavidH]

There is a large number of pilots here in the USA using Lithium batteries for receiver power. I would say that most of those are using Lithium-Ion cells.
Here is a few of the pilots I know that are using Duralites here in the USA.
Curtis Youngblood, Wayne Mann, Alan Szabo Jr. Clintstone, me and number of others.
Here is the Duralite website.
http://www.duralitebatteries.com

There is several places that sell Lithium batteries, both Ion and Polymer technology.
Duralite is a little more expensive than some others, but they have some safety features built into the packs that others don't. Also Duralite service is excellent. Do some research on the forums about Duralite. I believe you will find most users are very satisfied with Duralites.

David

[angelob]

Pitfalls?

Other than price vs a nicad pack, you will be spoiled by not having to field charge. I fly on my lunch breaks and it is nice to get in a few flights without having to field charge. I can put in twice as many flights. I love my Duralites!

Angelo

[r2160]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Just browsing through the web site. What reg? the 5.1 or 5.3?

It would seem to be that the 5.3 is going to be better from a servo power and speed point of view.

Glenn

[DavidH]

Glenn,
Duralite started producing the 5.3 regulator just recently. They did this because some of the consumers of the products requested they would like to have them.
I have a 5.3 volt regulator now that I am about to install. I would suggest the 5.3 volt regulator. That is putting out the constant voltage of 5.3 volts. A fully charged 4.8 volt pack is usually in the 5.4 to 5.6 range.

David

[Shortman]

Hey David, is Emory still working over at Duralite? Haven't talked to him in awhile but what a nice guy.

Glenn, might I also suggest another option, Fromeco Relions are also great packs, albeit without the safety circuitry, some of use prefer not to have it, as with everything, it does have its pros and cons.

Second, for a regulator, I would highly suggest checking out the new Arizona Heli Regulator. I've been using duralite, powerflite, and Smart fly regulators for years, but this new regulator really has them all beat, and not a bad price on it either for what you get.

Just throwing you another option.

[DavidH]

albeit without the safety circuitry, some of use prefer not to have it, as with everything, it does have its pros and cons.



And what is the cons of the safe charge circuit? Would be interested in knowing.


David

[r2160]

Yeah, I must admit the safety circuitry seems like a great idea. I am a "babe in the woods" with lithiums and after reading some of the stories of people who admit they werent as careful as they should have been, anything we can do to make sure the lithiums are safer is a great thing.

I also like the idea of a proven product rather than being the crash test dummy for a new one (he says finishing his stratus ;-))

I guess the only problem I am going to have is getting a power supply for the charger in 240V instead of 120V.

thanks guys for your input. I really appreciate it. I guess its time to email Duralite!

Glenn

[Shortman]

Well if I remember correctly, the safe charge circuitry has a cutoff voltage when your battery gets to low because it prevents you from ruining the battery. If your flying and this were to happen, goodbye helicopter. Now if you check your voltage inbetween flights you should be fine, but its something that should be noted. Second, the added costs and the little quirks when charging with the safety circuitry kinda stinks, because that whole extra circuitry cost maybe .50 cents extra. For some, we just prefer not to use the safe charge cicuitry, haven't had any problems.

[Clintstone]

SHortman, I caught only the tail-end of this but Duralite does not use the lowvoltage cutoff on the charge safe circuit. I have had nothing but good service and SAFE charging which was trouble free also with Duralites. I am not going to say Duralites are the only way to go but I will say they are my way to go.

As I stated I just got on the tail end but what are your thoughts on the balancing circuit? I again will say it is not the only way but is my way. Iam a Duralite REP. so only take my input for what it is worth...........my heli which I like better than anyother out there. I fly what I like and what I am comfortable with. I think there are alot of good products out there but there are some questionable ones too. Good to see all the input here and thanks all of you for posting. :hug:

[Clintstone]

Glen, if you have a 12V supply just use it to charge. I use 12V all the time. Makes it simple for me to only have to have 12v and I am not looking for 120V. Good Luck.

[Robert Johns]

Well if I remember correctly, the safe charge circuitry has a cutoff voltage when your battery gets to low because it prevents you from ruining the battery. If your flying and this were to happen, goodbye helicopter.

Steven,

The Duralite Charge Safe Circuitry has been designed to monitor the input charge cycle thereby preventing the possiblity of overcharging the battery; if the condition occurs, it will simply terminate the charge process. This circuitry does not monitor the utilization rates or levels of the battery when the system is in use. You may be referring the discharge process while the battery is in use - a potential case where the voltage drops below the manufacture's stated safe values thereby causing the battery to malfunction. In this case, you could use your statement - "goodbye helicopter". Duralite offers an extra device to monitor the voltage during use (#43055 - Low Voltage Cut Off ) that will prevent your batteries from discharging below the safe 5.5 volts.

The charge process is perhaps the most critical of operations of your battery system - incorrect charging of the system can cause a potential hazard - the built-in circuitry monitors the charge process and will terminate input if there is an issue.

Here is a link to explain their technology in greater detail
http://www.duralitebatteries.com/circuitry.html

-robert

[Shortman]

Yes Robert, thank you for clarifying my statement. The safe charge circuitry works both ways on the Duralite packs, not only in charging, but as well as discharging too. Many people forget about this, and while it will save your battery if you say leave your switch on, etc. it can be another possible failure point whereas you might fly away and land safely otherwise. For me kinda defeats the purpose of having the circuitry in the first place, as it adds another failure point to an already complicated system. This circuitry also adds weight, and to make it even more sophisticated, the extra device to moniter voltage during use just beats it to death. K.I.S.S. I like to go by this method. Charge at an appropriate rate, use a quality charger, and your packs will not be overcharged. Technology has come leaps and bounds in just the few short years. Duralite uses the circuitry to protect themselves as well, if we just spent a little time learning the basics of our batteries and matinence we would be much better off, and IMO, everyone should know how to properly charge your batteries.

I am not disputing the charging safety, but rather the discharge of the battery, when below or hit with a high amp spike, could dip below that "safe voltage level" and glitch or crash. This was to answers Davids reply in what ways the safe charge circuitry is not liked (by me).

I was a factory pilot for Duralite as well and Emory is an awesome guy, but I made the switch to Li Polys for the reason that Li Ion cannot handle the amp draw of todays Li Poly packs. I will not argue that Duralite is a great company, they are, and the cells they use are the industry standard 18650 Li Ions that other companies use as well, so it basically comes down to the safety circuitry.

Not sure if you guys are aware or not, but Lithium Ions already come with some safety features other batteries, including Li Polys don't. Cylindrical 18650 Li-ions have two internal safety devices that LiPos do not have -- a positive temperature coefficient (PTC) device (polyfuse) that reacts to temperature elevation by reducing current flow, and a pressure relief valve to release excessive pressures that can build up inside the cell. This is what makes Li Ions that much safer from the more fragile Li Poly chemistry,although they are the same chemistry, just different casing and body.


:mrgreen:

[Robert Johns]

Steven,

It appears that your information on the circuitry is incorrect so I just wanted to clarify...


The safe charge circuitry works both ways on the Duralite packs, not only in charging, but as well as discharging too.


Here is a quote from the Duralite site:

Can the battery power shut off inadvertently while in use?

No. The "Charge Safe CircuitryTM" only controls the charge of the pack. There is no circuitry on the power output side of the pack.

Here is the link: http://www.duralitebatteries.com/circuitry.html

I asked Jack the same question about the Charge Safe Circuitry and he verified the protection is in the "Charge" and not during the use of the battery - that is why that have a patent pending and trademark on the phrase "Charge Safe Circuitry" (operative word being Charge). As far as your comment about the weight - it weighs practically as much as the wire itself. See the pic on the top right of the page to verify the size of the circuit.

I provided the information concerning the #43055 - Low Voltage Cut Off to handle the monitoring of the voltage during the "use" of the battery - you may still be referring to this item (although most people do not use this on receiver packs).

You are correct that the Lithium Ion battery technology is safer than the Li-Poly technology. The Li-Polys are typically used in high-drawl application such as in brushless motor aircraft (foamies, micro helis, etc) which will allow for a much higher discharge rate than the Li-Ions. The Li-Polys and can be used for receiver packs as well(I know several who choose to use these as apposed to Li-Ions and they work very well). The Li-Ions (the 4000mah pack) allow a max discharge continuous rate of 7.2 volts which are adequate for a 90-size heli with full digitals flying hard 3D. Here is the link for the Li-Ions

http://www.duralitebatteries.com/batteries-ion.html

I'm not knocking other brands - there are several out there that will work in many applications - I just want to be sure that people are educated on the facts of Duralite products so they understand them.

:mrgreen:

-robert

[Shortman]

Robert, just to clarify I was speaking about the Low Voltage Cutoff when I said it works both ways.

Either way, batteries work :smokin: I like my Li Polys

[Robert Johns]

I'm alittle confused by your term "Low Voltage Cutoff" and that it "works both ways". Can you clarify this? The chargers do not handle this nor do the circuitry on the packs (this is why it is very important to check your packs before every flight with the battery checker). The only thing that monitors low voltage is the on-board monitoriing device (#43055 - Low Voltage Cut Off ). Are you referring to this?

Thanks.

-robert

[DavidH]

The Low Voltage cutoff is an optional device that is offered. This device is offered to plug in between the battery and the switch. This is offered for only for protection for someone that might leave there power on to the system. And this cuts off the power at 5.5 volts to keep from damaging the cells.

I don't know of anyone that has used the optional safey cutoff.

The Safe Charge/Cell Balancer circuit controls only the charging of the pack. There is a separate lead that has the power out, it is not connected to the charge safe circuit.

Charge at an appropriate rate, use a quality charger, and your packs will not be overcharged. Technology has come leaps and bounds in just the few short years.

That is one thing about the Charge Safe circuit, it is some of the best technology.
With the safe charge circuit, don't have to worry about charging at appropriate rate, or if the charger is setup correctly, or if it malfunctions. The safe charge circuit allows the person that has no knowledge of the batteries the ability to use the batteries safely.

I hear about fires with Lithium batteries every week. It may have happened, but I have yet to hear of any problems like fire with the Duralite packs with the Charge Safe circuit.

Yes I am a Representative for Duralite. I started using Duralites back when the Lithium/Metal (Tradian) cells were being sold. I believe in the product. Yes Duralite is a little more expensive. But for the service from Duralite and the safety of the products being used. I think it is worth it for the peace of mind.

David

[flyinfool]

So then is the "charge safe circuit" really a charger, less power supply?
Could you, in theory, safely hook up your TX wall wart to a Duralite pack to charge it?
I am not sure exactly what the "charge safe circuit" does.

For the record I have been using my Triton charger @ .5A to charge my duralite packs for the last year.

[Robert Johns]

Jeff,

The Charge Safe Circuit protection is located in the battery pack and monitors the charge from your charger and makes sure the input to the battery is safe. If there is a problem with either the charge current or the battery is having an issue receiving the charge, the charge safe circuit will terminate the charge process to prevent any potential hazardous issues. Just remember...charging Lithiums (both Li-Ions and Li-Polys) is where the most risk is involved.

You can use other chargers to charge the Duralite packs and it should be fine (although, according to Duralite, you will void your warranty doing so). I purchased their chargers b/c they have a monitoring circuit in them as well - plus, their chargers are simplistic - plug-in your batteries and when the green light goes out, your batteries are charged (I don't have to pick a battery type and rate to charge b/c the charger detects the state and properties of the battery connected to it and charges it as needed). I like the simplicity and safe charge security of their units. Yes, there is an initial investment cost but worth every penny for the technology and support I have not found anywhere else.

Also, the 4000mah pack is a redundant pack for flying safety which is very nice - increased number of flights plus the additional security if any of the 4 cells has an issue in flight, the paralleled cell pack will still be able to handle your flying load and get you back on the ground safely. Always check your packs every flight and make a mental note of your last checked value - if there is a substantial drop from the last flight to the check time of your next flight, then you may have a cell issue and you will have caught in on the ground in pre-flight using the Duralite checker (with a 1 amp load).

-robert

[DavidH]

Jeff,
The Charge Safe circuit is there to protect the batteries and to keep them from being abused when being charged only.

Yes you could hook your wall wart charger up to the yellow lead ( charge lead) on the pack. The wall wart charger would probably trip the Charge Safe circuit and it would not allow any current to reach the batteries.

Same using your Triton, if you turn the amperage up to high, the Charge Safe circuit is going to disengage and not allow it to reach the pack.

The Charge Safe circuit protects against
too high of charge current amperage and voltage and reverse polarity.

Do a search here on Helifreak. You can read about Shannon Davis using a Triton to charge his Duralite packs. There was a run of Charge Safe boards in the packs that would not allow the Triton to charge them at all. The Charge Safe circuit was doing its job and kept tripping.

For Duralite to warranty any of the Li-Ion packs a Duralite charger must be used.

David

[flyinfool]

Thats why I have my Triton set for .5A. At .6A the charge safe shuts off.
.5A is what the Duralite charger outputs.
So then when the "charge safe circuit detects something it does not like it just shuts it off as opposed to controlling it like a charger would.

Cool, I did not know exactly what the function of the Charge safe circuit was, now I do.

Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

I do prefer the Triton for charging since it will tell be how much power was put back into the pack. This give me a chance to get an early warning of possible mechanical problems on the heli if the amount of charge does not agree with the amount of flying that I did.

Now that I am putting the Duralites in more of my helies (should be up to 3 by the end of the month) I will be getting the 4 outlet charger just for convieniance.

Thanks

[Robert Johns]

Jeff,

We use the 3-in-1 charger instead of the 4RX charger - the reason is that we fly Duralites in the 9Z. The 4RX charger has 4 RX outputs only (7.4) and the 3-in-1 has 3 RX output (7.4) leads and 1 (11.1) charge output for the TX. (I also use this 11.1 output to charge our 3 cell foamy flight packs). Do you have the Duralite Load tester? Use this before every flight.

http://www.duralitebatteries.com/accessories.html

-robert

[flyinfool]

I do use a load tester.
I was looking at the 4RX since I have a 14MZ which is also a 7.4v pack, although I will still use the Futaba Charger for that.

[r2160]

I got to tell you guys, I am really glad i started this thread. I have learnt heaps about the duralites and about their use.

You guys ROCK :noteworthy

Glenn