Wipeout!

[SurfCity]

I really MUST get a bigger space to fly, especially during these setup trials (setup of the heli and setup of the pilot). Not even close to hovering yet. The little bird still wants to take off not straight up but to the left. Or should I say the LIGHTNING FAST LITTLE BIRD. It's waist high above my patio in the vicinity of an immovable object called my house. I give what my fingers sense is an itty-bitty-teeny-weeny correction, and the heli pitches back and accelerates toward the house like Bert Kammerer's hardest tic-tocs. How's that old Puffed Rice commercial go? SHOT FROM GUNS! Zowie! Thing is, I actually think I could have reacted to this, but I would have needed at least a few more feet. Escaped without excessive damage. Broke a blade, nicked the other, but now when the flybar's level, the blades are no longer at zero pitch but almost full pitch. I'm looking for clues why. And looking straight down there's a slight bend in one blade holder. So some new parts are in order.

You guys who mentioned the chattering belt -- how do you adjust the tension?

Surf
----------
"Fly the helicopter. Forget all that stuff about thrust and drag, lift and gravity; a helicopter flies because of PayPal."

[crabfu]

You guys who mentioned the chattering belt -- how do you adjust the tension?


Dude... sorry to hear that, sucks man... yeah corrections should not be itty-bitty, but more like subconscious movements, if you looked at the sticks you probably can't tell it's being moved :)

To adjust belt tension, you slide the tail boom in. To do this, loosen the boom by the 4 screws on the base of the boom / back of the frame (the side ones, not the ones on top)... then you can slide the boom in and out which will loosen or tighten the belt. Be careful not to over tighten the screws when you put it back... they are plastic holders and strip easily... I speak from experience, had stripped too many of them :)

-Crabfu

[SurfCity]

Dude... sorry to hear that, sucks man... yeah corrections should not be itty-bitty, but more like subconscious movements, if you looked at the sticks you probably can't tell it's being moved :)

To adjust belt tension, you slide the tail boom in ... they are plastic holders and strip easily... I speak from experience, had stripped too many of them :-)

-Crabfu

Let me get this right. If they're itty-bitty, they're too big. If they're teeny-weeny, they're too big. That's funny. Based on tonight, it's right.

Thanks for the note on the tail. Any clue what would cause the blade pitch to go crazy?

[crabfu]

Let me get this right. If they're itty-bitty, they're too big. If they're teeny-weeny, they're too big. That's funny. Based on tonight, it's right.

Thanks for the note on the tail. Any clue what would cause the blade pitch to go crazy?

lol... yeah... micro-micron-nano-sub-bitty... and you have to react early, before it actually really starts to move more than an couple of inches, once it pick up momentum and you notice it move, it's already too late and you've got your hands full :) It just takes practice to get a feel for it... sim (phoenix) is the best way to practice imho :)

And your pitch problem... hard to tell by description... you mean when the servos are centered/swash level, and you are getting full pitch? did you thorttle hold, unplugged the batt and looked at it with throttle full/servos all up? If not then check links from swash to seasaw... and all links for that matter, but your crash doesn't sound like it would cause it to... actually I can't think of a crash would do that without a heck of a lot of other broken cnc parts lol... anyway show some pics so we can try to help.

if there are bent cnc parts, best is to replace them. I've tried and bent back a blade grip once on the gaui... worked great, and worked for quite a while... until it snapped at the stress point in mid flight.

-Crabfu

[SurfCity]

you mean when the servos are centered/swash level, and you are getting full pitch?

Exactly. Everything looks normal, although the flybar feels freer (floppier) than it used to.

did you throttle hold, unplugged the batt and looked at it with throttle full/servos all up?

No. I'll do that tomorrow.

If not then check links from swash to seasaw... and all links for that matter

Checked all links. They look fine.

[Gr4yb3ard]

Regarding bending aluminum back into shape:

These light alloys fracture with very little bending. Ever bend a coathanger wire back and forth to break it, and felt that point at which the metal gives up? It feels pretty sick when you do it, just imagine the one or two more bends from the end, that metal is in your airplane.

Just a small bend can reduce the load carring capacity significantly, and we sure don't have the equipment to find out how much. Although I have had great results by collecting my bent parts and taking them to a psychic for evaluation. But for my money, if it's maybe if a non critical or lightly loaded part just needs a little nudge, okay. But I think with as much riding on it, it's worth replacing anything that's gotten really tweeked. I'm not trying to sell parts, just save a few...

Regarding the little-bitty teeny-weeny control movements:

I still don't fully understand the "expo" settings in my tx. Is'nt this supposed to give you the ability to reduce the sensitivity at mid stick? Maybe this might help. I'm running a dx6i, and I think at this point I'm going to look into hooking it into my simulator, so I can twiddle with some of this stuff on the ground.

Gr4yb3ard
"...for some reason, pirates look d*mned silly when trying to solder..."

[surgicalCFe]

I doubt you bent the blade grip, more likely the screw that secures the blade grip is bent. I knew because after my first crash I thought the same thing and it turned out to be the screw that was bent. Order a bunch of those screws. I guess the blade grip could be bent but it would take one heck of a crash.

[surgicalCFe]

Surf, seriously dude, do yourself a favor and follow this guide. I know its more exciting to just go for it but you will save yourself a lot of heart ache if you can stick to this.

http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

And you won't even need a large area, just a 1ft X 1ft square. :thumbup:

[crabfu]

I still don't fully understand the "expo" settings in my tx. Is'nt this supposed to give you the ability to reduce the sensitivity at mid stick? Maybe this might help. I'm running a dx6i, and I think at this point I'm going to look into hooking it into my simulator, so I can twiddle with some of this stuff on the ground.


Yeah expo does exactly that... but for some reason I find the guai much easier without expo, where as I can't fly my other helis well with 0 expo. I think it has to do with soft dampeners on the gaui.

Anyway, I think that might be a good idea to try adding expo for hovering around practice surf :) The only reason that I say tiny stick movements are too much, is from personal experience when I was first learning - I constantly over corrected, and snow ball into more and more overcorrection, and ends up all over the place. I am still struggling with that... it's hard not to over correct, especially when something catches you off guard. So for beginners I'd say move the sticks much less than you think it needs to, it takes a while to get the feel :) And sim! What sim are you using Gr4yb3ard? I use my dx7 on phoenix sim & love it :)

-Crabfu

[psindrup]

Have you setup expo on your transmitter?

The Gaui 200 is probable the most difficult "first heli" you can choose ...

Peter
T-rex 500 for "trainer"

[crabfu]

I doubt you bent the blade grip, more likely the screw that secures the blade grip is bent. I knew because after my first crash I thought the same thing and it turned out to be the screw that was bent. Order a bunch of those screws. I guess the blade grip could be bent but it would take one heck of a crash.

lol... I've bent a couple of them :) You're right, most of the time it's the screw that gets bent, or the seasaws... but sometimes the screw bends the grips as well, so that the threaded hole is not straight anymore but at an angle when you put in a new screw/seasaw. It doesn't have to be a hard crash, if you fly into a wall, or land it on the head... my idiot fingers, I curse you.

-Crabfu

[Gr4yb3ard]

Sounds like we're all in about the same place... ;-)

I'm using RealFlight, just a few new birds added from Knifeedge as yet, just about to add my Dx6i as the trainer....
Phoenix looks good, heard some *great* reports, but alas...

Gr4yb3ard
"...don't forget about the superglue & visine thing..."

[Gr4yb3ard]

D*mn,

I'd swear I just saw Pete overhead!!!

Lurking in the sun lad??

Gr4yb3ard
"...I dunno, lots about Europe, Denmark and Southern California, something about pirates, d*man, danes, heli, or hell... sounds like a shakespearian group on tour or something like that.... ...good work, the NSA thanks you..."

[SurfCity]

A veritable torrent of advice! Guys, thanks. Let me clarify a couple things.

1) It's not my first heli. It's my first SINGLE-ROTOR heli. I can fly my Blade CX2 through narrow doors and land in any orientation on a CD case across the room.

2) I have sim time, and I have a new Phoenix sim on the way. On the sim, I successfully inverted a heli on my first try. Some luck, of course, was involved, but it wasn't all accidental.

3) My first goal with the Gaui is to hover in a 1-ft. x 1-ft. box, just as Radd suggests. My "going for it" was a modest attempt to escape ground effect, because . . .

4) The moment my skids leave earth, my heli crabs fast (of course, it does everything fast) toward 10:30. I'm trying to discern the cause of this. Everything's level level level, double and triple checked. It's not yaw, because it doesn't turn toward 10:30; it just scoots sideways.

5) Tiny (or what I considered tiny) stick movements do not correct for the crabbing quickly enough to avoid objects. Larger movements are required. These create a LOT of pitch and roll. It doesn't crab back the way it went. Something about this is clearly not right.

6) Until I can hold a hover, I can't do an accurate mechanical setup on the tail in rate mode, like Logitech wants. So I'm in rate mode for now.

7) If I had a gymnasium, I'd have the space to let it wander everywhere and the time to figure it out. A 12-ft. x 12-ft. space doesn't do it. With the Blade and now the Gaui, 100% of my accidents have been incidental contact with furniture or walls.

Anyone else have these issues?

It's OBVIOUS that once set up correctly, this will be a VERY FUN heli.

Getting there.

Surf
----------

[Fudd]

Setting your heli up with the swash level and the servo arms at 90deg is maybe not the best advise if you're learning to hover. Its a good mechanical base set up but you will always end up trimming it to the right to counteract the tail rotor.
With my swash level I then need to add 3 - 4 beeps of right trim (dx6i) to counter the tail and then 2 or 3 beeps forward to counter the tail heaviness just to get a stable hover. With my walkera 52 the swash is maybe twice the angle to the right than the gaui when trimmed.
When the helis trimmed properly it will still drift to the left when taking off. You just have to get used to this by adding right cyclc on take off. It also helps to punch the heli up rather than trying to lift up slowly. Once you're at waist level then you can make adjustments.

[rotorhead58d]

fudd, don't you punch that poor little heli. shame on you, you bully!:mad:

[SurfCity]

It also helps to punch the heli up rather than trying to lift up slowly. Once you're at waist level then you can make adjustments.

Thanks, Fudd. That's the exact thing I had just done, and for the exact reason; I thought the leftward motion might be ground effect. But I was in too small a space, and what I thought was a small correction was obviously an overcorrection. More space and I would have been okay. The speed of this thing is astonishing.

So you're saying that leftward movement on lift-off is normal? I can work with that, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Another question. For noob hovering, would you recommend high head speed, low pitch, or vice-versa?

Okay, one more. With straight forward stick, does your heli move straight forward? Or does it move forward and leftward?

Surf

[rotorhead58d]

most heli's lift off to the left when they take off. most...

[crabfu]

hate to break it to ya surf, but cx skills don't translate to cp helis much at all :) Even some sims like fms etc gives you a false sense of control... but phoenix is the right way to go in my opinion :)

And yeah you need to mechanically setup the tail stuff first before switching to hh, but don't spend anymore time than you need to in rate... sounds like your tail is not waggling or drifting... if that's the case, HH time and leave it there, it will be easier not having to correct the tail while learning to hover :)

And yes you need to get used to the tilt on the heli, it's normal for them to tilt like fudd said... if you try to make the rotor perfectly level in hover, it will slide to the left. And depending on your cg, it may just want to always go in a certain direction. And about your comments.... it's not a cx, so it won't center itself... if it started going in a direction, and you corrected it, you need to counter correct your correction. Basically it's like a holding a tray wit a marble on it, the marble will easily slide off to the sides, and will continue to unless you get control and continue to counteract constantly.

Punching it up... be careful :) if you are not used to how sensitive the collective is, you might shoot it up and slam it down too much... training gears and take it slow is my suggestion, and get familiar with that throttle hold switch :) Once you get used to that then you can give it a quick climb to hover :) it really is easier to hover out of the ground effect.

-Crabfu

[SurfCity]

... sounds like your tail is not waggling or drifting... if that's the case, HH time and leave it there, it will be easier not having to correct the tail while learning to hover

The tail seems pretty good, although with all the variables, I'm not certain. How dialed-in does it need to be to not mess up gyro HH?

it's normal for them to tilt like fudd said... if you try to make the rotor perfectly level in hover, it will slide to the left.

It's not the tilt I'm concerned about; it's the movement.

And depending on your cg, it may just want to always go in a certain direction.

I'll look into this. When I hold the heli by the blade grips, it hangs tail down (slightly), which doesn't suggest forward movement.

Punching it up... be careful :) if you are not used to how sensitive the collective is, you might shoot it up and slam it down too much

So when you guys are saying PUNCH, just how much punching do you mean? What I did was just enough to break ground effect, not really a leap into the air.

get familiar with that throttle hold switch

Throttle hold? Tell me about this.

Surf

[surgicalCFe]

A veritable torrent of advice! Guys, thanks. Let me clarify a couple things.

1) It's not my first heli. It's my first SINGLE-ROTOR heli. I can fly my Blade CX2 through narrow doors and land in any orientation on a CD case across the room.

----------

Coaxial helis are nothing like cp heli's, coaxial helis pretty much do the work for you. The best advice is to take it very very slow and it will pay off big time in the end. Radd's School of Rotary Flight is in my opinion the best thing since sliced bread. I haven't crashed since I started following it, I am also still not out of the hover section yet, lol. Once the weather gets out of its transition phase from winter to spring I'll be able to get it outside and start working on forward flight. Just to windy right now.

[crabfu]

switch to HH, the worse that can happen is it wags, or it drifts. If it wags, try adjusting your gyro endpoints lower. If it drifts, adjust endpoints up. If it still doesn't want to hold in HH, then adjust mechanically in rate... it sounds like you were not drifting or wagging, so you are probably ok in hh... it won't hurt nothing :)

And tilt... tilt ends up being movement, so it's basically the same thing.

And CG, yeah it's rather tail heavy, I've moved all my electronics up front to get proper CG. Your swash may not be completely level... I don't know what else to tell ya, either the swash is pushing the heli forward, or the weight, or your thumb :)

punch... I don't know, just fast enough to get out of ground effect quickly, so a little leap I guess :)

throttle hold... it's usually the switch on the top right of the tx. When set correctly, it cuts off all power to the motor, but you still have control over all servos. It is used for autos.... and for when you know there is no way in hell you are going to recover, it cuts off power to the motor so that it bleeds off your head speed, hopefully minimizing the damage. For normal mode it slows down the head faster... and for idle up crash, it prevents the chicken dance where the motor just keeps going because of the flat throttle curve, destroying everything because the motor doesn't stop. But overall... you should get into the habit of always be in throttle hold when you plug in your battery, and after landing and going up to the heli.... you don't want to be close to the heli when it lifts off because you bump your throttle stick or something. I wouldn't recommend trusting throttle hold for setup though - still unplug the motor wires etc :) So in short... switch throttle hold on until you are ready to fly, after the flight switch it back on before going up to the heli... anytime it's not in the air and you are near it, it should be in throttle hold. And if you are an inch from disaster, switch it on to minimize damage... you don't have to worry about idle up yet, but good practice to know where that switch is, and when to use it. Again sim practice is good... get into the rabbit of using it in phoenix when you get it :) I often use throttle hold for short little autos from idle up mode... but it's rather tricky in the gaui, still trying to get used to it.

-Crabfu

[crabfu]

Coaxial helis are nothing like cp heli's, coaxial helis pretty much do the work for you. The best advice is to take it very very slow and it will pay off big time in the end. Radd's School of Rotary Flight is in my opinion the best thing since sliced bread. I haven't crashed since I started following it, I am also still not out of the hover section yet, lol. Once the weather gets out of its transition phase from winter to spring I'll be able to get it outside and start working on forward flight. Just to windy right now.

Yeah... lol most of us have been down this road, cx to cp . After declaring myself as the greatest cx pilot in the history of mankind, I figured even if cp helis are a few times harder, I should be able to do it with a little practice. Boy was I wrong... it ain't the same game, not even the same sport, and maybe not even on the same planet :) That goes for setup & maintance as well.... cx & cp are just vastly different, almost everything about cx should be left at the door when you step into the cp world (don't get me wrong, I love my cx still, not dissing cx helis here). It'd be a smoother road to look at it as a brand new experience, and the gaui will bring you much more enjoyment (as well as frustration) that cx heli never ever could. Enjoy the ride man, and listen to the advice of the experienced people here... but not me though, I dunno what I'm doing yet :)

-Crabfu

[psindrup]

Just a small remark of encouragement

I can fly my Gaui outdoors in the garden in calm weather
I can not fly my Gaui indoor in my living room due to the TBE

Try to take it outside on a calm day.

Peter

[Fudd]

As far as pitch and throttle curves go, I have my heli set up in normal mode with +2 degrees at zero throttle, +5 degrees at mid and +9 degrees at max. If I fly outside with this set up the heli feels a bit gutless, but for indoor hovering its perfect. Most people recommend -2, +5 and +12 for normal mode but thats assuming you're doing FFF outdoors in the wind. I find that with some positive pitch at zero throttle emergency landings are much softer. Its only when you go outside and a gust of wind lifts the heli 6ft that negative pitch becomes desirable.
Reducing the max pitch from +12 to 9 degrees means that once the heli is in the air you need to move the throttle stick slightly more to adjust altitude. Again, this is useful for indoor hovering as you have more room for error when learning how the throttle stick responds. The downside of this is only apparent when you go outdoors again and find the heli lacks the power to fight the wind or do FF.
Finding the right throttle curve is more of a personal thing - if you're prepared to risk more damage when it goes wrong for more response and stability when it goes right, then a faster head speed is what you want. With my 5 weeks of experience flying (mostly hovering) the 200, I find it flys ok with a lower head speed but you will still smash things up as well.
One more thing. As far as needing more space goes, when I was learning with my 52 I found that the more space I had the bigger the crashes were. I had a few attempts outdoors with maybe a 10 second flight followed by a 'major' followed by a week waiting for parts. Thats when decided I was going to hover a full pack indoors before going outside again.
I hope this helps since we all enjoy hearing how others get there. Maybe you'll be giving the rest of us tips soon :thumbup: