The Heli gods don't want me flying in '08

[lperagallo]

OK, so we finally have a warm day. You notice I didn't say a nice day. Winds were at 15 to 20. OK, so I'll just hover around and test the Turbine with the new tanks and batteries. l'll also test the Gasser from my last 'experience'.

Turbine first. Fuel it, range test it, check batteries, check all control surfaces. Looks good. Hit the start sequence, fires right up. Check control surfaces again at low head speed, everything is great. Set Timer, take off and hover. What a beautiful sight, solid hover, little tail twitching, but after all I'm in a direct cross wind the tail is working hard. Hovering at 6 to 8 feet in all directions, all of the sudden the tail breaks away and I'm in a pirouette! Instead of hitting hold, I hit the throttle hard down.:arggg::arggg: Drill the bird into the ground from 6 feet. I turn off the engine and see smoke:shock:, what do you say when you see smoke......OH YEAH FIRE:wow2::wow2:, Grasp the extinguisher and run (OK, waddle my fat a$$ as quick as an old guy can run) and shoot the fire out. No big deal. Lost the boom, Main Blades, Tail blades, broke the tail output shaft clean off, broke the servo mount, head axle, long link long gone. OK stupid that's what you get for panicking. Put it in the truck and take out the Gasser.

The Gasser fires right up. Seems a little sluggish so I play with the needles a bit. Seems better. Hovers fine. Hit Idle up and it jumps to life. Sounds good, but look canopy cheeks are vibrating. Never did that before. So I landed and came home.

On the gasser I found I mounted one Bell Hiller arm backwards. How'd I do that. OK quick fix. Check the high needle, it's at almost 2 1/4 turns out. Brought that back to 1 3/8 and will start from there when I dare to fly again.

As I start working on the turbine I find a whole lot of damage. That 20 second fire took out all the plastic lines. It also singed some wires. It also melted the wrap on the brand new Lipo. Not the batteries or wires, just the outside wrap. I decided to take off the turbine nose and check the lines up front. My luck I melted the gas line, and the two lines with the little tiny restrictors. The problem is figuring out how to insert the restrictors back into new line. I'll call the UK in the morning and find out. I'm sure there is a special tool that can only be found in some remote part of the world. The rest is easy and inexpensive to fix so after I get the battery pack back from Duralite and some parts from my friends at Bergen I'll be OK. I just guess 2008 can't get any worse. It seems the more I try to do things right the more that goes wrong:bawl

Lou

[rbort]

Man you do write a good story though!! I hope you've used up all your bad luck already for the year! :)

-=>Raja.

[rkeith2]

Lou,

I am sorry to hear about today and will certainly empathize as I have also been there. What do you think cut loose on the anti torque system.

[Sara]

Oh dear, Lou!

Our guy at Wren Turbines USA, Ron Ballard, may be able to help you with restrictors - I think he has them in stock. His details are on the contact page of our website - I always hesitate to put them on forums because that can sometimes lead to junk mail. Ron carries a good stock of spares now. He's a turboprop man rather than a heliman but has a good knowledge of our two-stage engines.

Yes, there is a special tool for putting the restrictors in the pipe ... we've got it here ...

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[lperagallo]

Sara,

Thanks, I'll phone him up. Now if I could only get the tool here!:)

Lou

[JC]

Man... Lou, I'm really sorry now that I wasn't able to come out to fly. Not that I want to see the carnage, but that maybe we could have had that fire out quicker or something.

I'll come over this weekend (since it'll be raining anyway) and we'll get your wiring cleaned up and redone. :hug: From what you described to me on your new battery, it should be fine.
Maybe a big asbestos blanket over all the good stuff up front is in order. :P

[lperagallo]

OK, so I hate to admit it, but the only thing I can think of that caused the tail issue was that I didn't seat the dog-bone all the way in last time I had the tail off for service. I remember not feeling good about it and I must have reinserted the tail at least three times. It came up to the same place each time and when I checked the tail it seemed connected fine. There's got to be a better way to check then the way I'm doing it. I still do have a lot of checking to do, so I'm not sure, but that where I'm leaning to now. Been working on getting all the turbine lines back together and the nose of FOD screen back on.

I also haven't had time to check out the tail transmission to make sure that set screw hasn't backed out. I'll double check that also. Also need to check that I didn't loose any set screws in the torque tube collars. Can ya tell I haven't worked on the tail after the crash. I don't think it was a servo or gyro issue as there haven't been many flights on a new 611. I was in the toughest orientation with the wind also so any loss of tail speed would have have effected it more.

Lou

[rkeith2]

Lou,

You probably already know the drill but maybe I will say something that will make you bang your head a second.

Dogbone 1mm out, arrow shaft length offset and dimples to prevent slip at each grub screw, smoooooth tail slider and pitch operation and strain relief on the tail control shaft from the servo.

I was on top of all this and the 2.4 Spektrum RX did a low power reset last time

[rbort]

On the Bergen tail drive is the 12 setscrew, two arrow shaft, two dogbone, 4 collar and center piece that it takes to make 1 torque tube. With over 20 parts holding this thing together, there is alot of chance for it to come apart. I had the same thing happen to me on the Bergen Twin - I was lucky enough to have good experience to auto and land it, and when I went to look at the thing alot of the set screws were not tight all the way and could be turned an 1/8th of the turn more before stopping.

I'd highly suggest that you put flat spots on more than 1 setscrew of the 3 of each of the 4 collars instead of one dimple on each.

Sorry Chris I don't mean this in a bad way, just trying to give advice to the rest of the guys here, the same as I gave my friend Istvan as nobody wants to see their large investment spin out and go down due to 1 setscrew that is on the dimple getting loose.

-=>Raja.

[lperagallo]

Ron,

I know the drill and I haven't had a chance to review the tail yet, but I'm still wondering if I didn't get the dog-bone firmly seated. I do drill the collars with one dimple each. I'm also going to check the amount of travel I permit in pitch slider. If there is too much you can get the new style tail blades stuck. With the 611, I can adjust both ends and maybe with all that wind, they went far and got stuck. With the tail output shaft sheared off, I have no idea if that happened.

Raja,

While I know you think there is a lot of stuff to set up the tail, I've never experienced an issue with anything coming undone. I know you have had that experience, but as long as you do what you are instructed, I don't think it's a big issue. I've never had a grub screw come loose in the tail. I'll post and let everyone know what I find.

Lou

[rbort]

Its your heli so whatever you're comfortable with is OK with me!! I was just trying to help save you guys an unnecessary crash. Let me just say that the big camera machine that I'm flying I've already told Istvan to take that torque tube out and put flats on all the set screws. I'm just making the weakest link stronger.

By the way, with all the talk about gasser prices and costs, can you list the prices of all the parts that you ordered and the total cost of the crash? Maybe also you can post a copy on the relevant thread on Runryder -- some guy (Eric) just claimed $707.65 for repairs on his Robbe, I'm sure you'll come in below that and support that the average crash cost is much less than that.

Thanks and when are you coming to Boston to visit?

-=>Raja.

[cbergen]

The problem with that Raja, is that means drilling 3 holes in the end of each arrow shaft.

I have seen this myself, so it's not a theory, This can cause the end of the arrow shaft to CRACK OFF!!

How well do you think that is going to hold.......

When drilling the divot, you go through the arrow shaft, creating a deep enough divot in the underlying shaft to seat the setscrew into.

A divot is ALWAYS stronger than a flat on a shaft. 3 flats may be stronger than a single divot, but now you have weakened the arrow shaft itself.

What else are you telling them to do that is NOT what we recommend and then expect us to cover the damages?

[rkeith2]

Raja ---

[cbergen]

HA! Now THAT is funny.



Maggot.

:)

[lperagallo]

Raja,
I did post an average repair cost back on RunRyder when they were all trashing the cost of Gassers. It really depends on teh crash, but I don't come close to $700.00 a crash.

It's posted here http://runryder.com/helicopter/t424140p1/

Lou

[Garland]

I thought it funny that on my Xcell 50 years ago I could upgrade to a Bergen tail shaft so I happily crimped all the setscrews onto the Arrow shaft and called Chris B. for another part.

1st ring and Im on the phone with the man himself:
Me: " I crimped the hell outta those TTube setscrews and that sucker is solid!"

Bergen: " did ya put a divot in the dogbone??"

Me:" ummm yeh Chris I sure did!...ehh real men dont make just a lil divot!! So....nope, no I didnt divot actually"

Bergen:" ya really need a divot, here is why..."

He then went on to explain all things holy and Bergen...Heli flew great with that lil divot.

Still have all my old XCells and 4 Intrepids later I cant say enough about this company!

[rkeith2]

Bergen customer service -

[rbort]

I'm just trying to help out and tell you guys that the way it comes out of the factory apparently is either not good enough or is not tight enough or the divot is not deep enough. It gets loose, my factory assembled twin one got loose, and like I said before I told Istvan to check his turbine's as he definately doesn't want his to get loose.

There is no need for "what else are you telling them" or the little cop pointing the finger at me. I'm trying to help and I put it right here Chris where you can reply to it, not on Runryder where you can't.

If my suggestion is not right or I'm all wrong then I'm wrong and sorry I wasted your time guys with useless information.

-=>Raja.

[cbergen]

There is a very easy way to check it as a preflight, Grab the head, grab the tail and try to turn them against each other. One way, it'll turn freely (with a non-driven tail), the other way.....Should NOT turn.

I think the pic is R. Lee Ermey, a Marine Gunny from movies and his own show on the History channel!! And it's still funny....:))

I apologize if the tone was a little tuff, but some "modifications" can make things worse, similar to some of the things our buddy Acebird has suggested....

An error in assembly (Not having the divot big or deep enough) does NOT constitute a need for changing the design or reason for doing it in a certain way. It means more diligence in doing it the correct way. We are always tryign to improve our processes, the way we produce parts or machines, some of that is learned from customers experiences, but mostly from our own experiences.

As I told one customer who assembled things slightly "different" from the way it's described in the manual, " I can try to tell you the proper way to do it, but I have no idea how many ways it can be done WRONG!!"

[rkeith2]

Raja -

Its all fun ...

Little cop?

That's the Master Drill Instructor "oooh rah"

[JC]

If my suggestion is not right or I'm all wrong then I'm wrong and sorry I wasted your time guys with useless information.

-=>Raja.Now now. No one said your information was a waste of time or "useless".
The last few posts did seem like a pile on Raja theme but you have to admit, you brought it on yourself when you post... NP Lou, Its your heli so whatever you're comfortable with is OK with me!! I was just trying to help save you guys an unnecessary crash.That sounds like "I know the right way but you do whatever you want".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's still not been determined what casued Lou's tail to let loose. We know why it crashed (:DOH) but by you stating that if it's not done your way you'll have a crash is IMO :bs

Even in your post #18 you sound like your the one who should have written the design book, and/or you know what part let loose on Lou's heli.

Everyone experiments and does things a little differently as we go. That's how we progress. Maybe this is one of those times where Chris learns something from a customers experience, but I wouldn't go as far as saying the factory job isn't up to par.

Jeff

P.S. Who goes to RunRyder anyway?

[lperagallo]

I found the problem with the tail on the Turbine today. You will never guess what it is.:shock: It turns out the dog bone was spinning in the arrow shaft. I've never worked on the torque tube on this bird so it is original assembly from when I bought it used. I can see that the set screw spun in the dog bone. There was a slight (very slight) dimple in the dog bone, but not a big one. There is now a small groove in the dog bone where the set screw spun. All the set screws were snug, but the dog bone spun.

I"ve drilled a bigger dimple so the set screw has a better place to grab.

Lesson to be learned, if you buy used you'd better tear it down completely. This heli had an almost complete tear down and everything checked out OK. Didn't check the torque tube though.:oops:

Lou

[JC]

Not sure I'd even call it a dimple. :lol: Kind of just scratched the surface a little in one spot.
That part is fixed now though. I saw the dimple (crater) Lou made. :thumbup:

So Lou, How's the wiring coming?

[lperagallo]

JC,

The wiring is complete except for the Tail Servo. You'd be proud. I have to send the Duralite back, it appears the charging circuit is dead. It won't charge.

I also don't have a part I need. It's the boom clamp that holds the boom supports. Other then those two things all I need to do is change out the main gear and it's back together.

I'll have to see what the fuel line insulators look like as I might end up using those, so I haven't run the propane line yet.

Lou

[rbort]

JC:

Sounds like Lou found out exactly what I expected, and, that is the same thing that happened to me so I learned it from experience. The dog bone spun inside the arrow shaft and the dimple was pretty slim and not very deep for the setscrew to hold in it.

So I *DO* know what part let loose on Lou's machine. Guess I got lucky in your book eh? :)

-=>Raja.