wolfdad warned me

[wolfdad]

Chris,
Already checked them....perfect fit, shipmate! Should have known you would have already been ahead of me on those larger aluminum bottles....and don't say what's on your mind....just go back to the Army Navy game last year :wink: :wink: :wink:

"Girlish screams!" Tim, just wait until Sherry hears that your were running around, lifting your petticoat and screaming, "iz on fire, iz on fire!" :D :D :D
Doc

[chopper jockey]

Gary, that`s all very well, I was suggesting it`s easier, safer and cheaper to dump gas into the controlled fire in the engine rather than create a gas cloud next to the airframe, if you are afraid it would flame out then do it imeadiately after start up whilst spooling up on the ground :)

[Peter Rob]

Doc
JetCat do sell the complete package,2 stage turbine,drip feed lubrication for gearbox, govenor, and Kero-start, what more could you ask for and all warrented byJetCat,I am glad I waited, It has come up to my expectations and more
Peter R

[Gary Travis]

Doc
Not trying to reinvent the wheel, I just came up with a way to deal with it at present. Plus it was interesting to get working.
Chopper jokey it can be set up so that there is no gas cloud (although that might be interesting) just kidding. I primarily did it for my fixed wing turbines and found it to be useful on the helicopter. it can be regulated and dumped into the engine.
Gary

[hornblower]

Guys I figured it is time to get this up. For several months I have been testing a n electronic starting gas dump valve system for the turbines. It has worked well without problems. It consists of a electronic solenoid a valve and fittings. The dump valve system will come with all appropriate fittings and hoses.
It installs on all turbine engines and when connects to and open channel on the reciever. Once airbourne you hit the switch and the starting gas is dumped.
At present the kit is being packaged and the installation instructions are being written. It will be available in a few days to a week at most. You can PM me with questions, as soon as all is ready I will post ordering info.
Gary Travis

Be cautious, will this modification invalidate your warranty with wren?

[Gary Travis]

Hornblower
That is one of the reasons I opted not to go through the engine with the dump system. I simply stated it could be done.
Gary

[hornblower]

Is this another example of a good idea being poo poo`d because of what wren might say, why don`t they come up with these ideas themself instead of after market middlemen. I think it would make a good safety improvement by the sound of it, to discharge the propane into the engine and if propane burns at a lower temp than kerosin then the temp would go down, not up during the dump cycle

[Peter Rob]

Garry, I can see why a dump system is needed on a clutchless turbine helicopter with on board gas storage I would follow Wolfdads idea of no onbard gas storage, but why all the trouble why not just go to Kero-start, it works a treat and and like all new systems needs to be installed and set up correctly before flying, after that no problems
Peter R

[Gary Travis]

Peter
The Bergen turbine does have a clutch, I did this because some don't want to have gas on board. I myself run my starting gas on board without problems to date. I think the kero start system is a great idea however it is to soon to make an accurate assumption. I was at Vegas and watched the flame show from the Jetcat powered kero start. This early in the development of the kero start I am not convinced. Now I know quite a few people are running them and have had good luck, this dose not mean thatthe system is fully developed and flawless. The rule is that if it is mechanical it can fail. For those wanting to use a dump system it's available, for those wanting kero start it to is available. Is one better than the other, well I guess that would depend on that person you are asking. The good part is that there are a lot of things coming about which in the end will result in a better hobby for all.
Gary

[hornblower]

I`m confused again, what does having a clutch or not have to do with having an on board gas canister? :?

[Peter Rob]

Hornblower
Without a clutch the blades start to turn very quickley, if you delay in detaching your gas bottle ,you will have a problem, I know I had that problem the gas connection froze up and would not release
Peter R

[Peter Rob]

Gary
You are right, it is up to the individual to have what they want, myself I just wanted less clutter, tanks and plumbing, and a complete system warrented by the makers
Peter R

[cbergen]

Well I hope they warranty that guys EC that caught fire in Las Vegas!!

J/K, It didn't get burned that bad :) Good thing it wasn't painted yet........

[Peter Rob]

Chris
I have seen your Heli progress, and admire the way it was done, clever advertising on RR and the like, good to see another Turbine heli to choose from.
What does not do you credit is the way you are bashing one very wet start on a JetCat, if the owner had only followed the very simple advice from JetCat that in the event of a failed start pick up the machine and drain any excess fuel from the turbine, it is very easy to preach, but in the moment of panic so simple to forget the basics
So please promote your own and what looks like a very good product,and stop knocking the oposition
Peter R

[chopper jockey]

Pete mate, remember our first kero start with a PHT3, it had 3 failed starts with an almost flat battery. when we changed the battery for a fully charged one it started perfectly, only a slight puff of smoke. This doubles up as a good battery test before flight (the battery has to be good or it won`t start). The same happens on my wren, if I over prime it, it gives a puff of smoke on start up and a higher temperature spike, but that is all and not a problem. One thing to consider is a wet start on a thrust engine with exhaust pointing at the tail fin should definately be avoided, like you say, tip the excess fuel out if in doubt and always charge your batteries before flying. however on a 2 stage with side deflected exhaust it is nothing like as spectacular ! :badair:

[Dr.Tim]

Peter Rob, In Chris's defense I do ne feel he is BASHING anyone ...simply stating what he saw! I fly Jakadofsky Turbines and absolutly Love them but I also feel that there are a few other manufacturers of some pretty nice stuff out there. What I do NOY like is most of those will put a product out and the customer is the TESTER ... At thier expense!! This has to stop! At least when Jakadofsky put his Turbine on the market he beat the tar out of it just to see if it would fail! He even clamped down on the clutch to see if the Turbine could handle the torture!! I have yet to see the others do this ...

Dr.Tim

[Gary Travis]

Good point Tim, I know when I did the first Bergen prototype with the Wren system I pushed it pretty hard. Even though I was excited to let Chris and Larry see it , I held back until I was sure it would hold up. After B'ham Chris and Larry added to the mix to make sure that the whole thing was going to work properly. In doing this it keeps the R&D in house.
With new products and inovations coming out some are anxious to get them out to market quickly, I, when doing something new prefer to take my time and do the R&D and developement rather than let the end user do it
Gary

[Dr.Tim]

Thank You Gary! I was all prepaired for a bashing from those who like to PAy to test others Products :glasses2:

Dr.Tim

[cbergen]

I was in no way bashing, and I apologize if it came across this way. My whole reason for bringing it up is to offer a counter to YOUR repeated claims that it is foolproof, when clearly it is NOT!

Yes, I agree, Instructions need to be followed. Lord knows I have had my share of "difficulties" with customers who refuse to follow the instructions.

[Peter Rob]

Chris do you know the guy who has the misshap,does he subscribe to any of our forums, And as you said Nothing is foolproof
Peter R

[Gary Travis]

Peter
Dr Tim would know the guys name as he was helping him. I don't think Chris knows him. We just happened to be there when it lit off. Quite the spectacle for sure.
Gary

[Dr.Tim]

The PRoblem was with the Battery, I would take a charge but when put under the heavy loads that a Kero start requires the battery would fail. We replaced the battery and tried again when this HOT start occured ... by the way, there was NO DAMAGE!! Everything is fine and I am sure it will be a top performer!

Dr.Tim

[cbergen]

It sure did sound good once it fired off, Wish'ed he had it ready to fly out there. From what little I saw it looked it was going to be a beautiful machine.

[wolfdad]

Glad this all turned out ok....potential for a lot of further damage and expense here and glad there was some experience there.

And, by the way, I number all of you participating in this thread as friends and I think I know each of you a bit and, believe me, there was no bashing going on, specifically from either Chris or Dr. Tim. Dr. Tim's point on the Nimh batteries should NOT be lost in the noise. All turbine manufacturer's have recommended against using Nimh's on the FADEC/ECU side of the system and Dr. Tim's comments bring out, very vividly the reason why....with the additional immediate draw due to the kero-start and the starter, the Nimh batteries, due to their characteristics, cannot handle it...point well-taken...and noted.

And, my point on the kero-start is my opinion only. Until the manufacturers of the engines I choose to fly make it "standard issue" equipment, I am not going to use it. And, I am, additionally, NOT going to fly around with a bottle of residual, compressed Powermax onboard, so I am left starting from an external Powermax source. Without a clutch, which is now required, by the way, by the AMA (don't know of any way to keep the blades still at turbine idle, otherwise), an external start, as Peter Rob pointed out, is a bit "dicey" but can be done.

Dr. Tim, I did not know that the Jaka had been tested in that manner....incredible piece of information, but one that I think Peter would be the only one in the industry right now with the conjones to perform. As we have discussed elsewhere, I am confident that one, the BK is not underpowered and, two that there is nothing wrong with the turbine and three, that peaking and tweaking comes with the territory on a multi-blade scale aircraft.
Doc