View Full Version : Vbar or SK360 better at piro flips
GB123
05-03-2008, 08:42 PM
I fly a Logo 600 with a Vbar. I diffidently like the flybarless setup. Just not the price of the Vbar unit. The Vbar is a 3 axis unit while the SK360 is a 2 axis unit. Now it's been my understanding, could be wrong here, that Vbar excels in pirouetting maneuvers, such as piro flip, kaos. I would like to try the SK360 but I'm not willing to compromise those maneuvers. Has anyone had a chance to compare? Anyone doing those maneuvers with the SK360 have any feed back?
Finless
05-04-2008, 12:09 PM
Not yet as I am still tinkering with the SK360 on a Trex500....
Although I cant see why there would be a difference with Piro flips? Over all if there is a performance difference is cyclic control or speed this would show up and most maneuvers as well..... In the end I wont know as I don;t have a V-stabi to compare it with. Kevin and I can compare performance but his heli has a fantastic frame mod for full sized FAST servo so it wont be a apples to apples test.
In a few weeks I should have this SK360 down and setup and I will let you know my over opinion then.
Bob
It shouldn't matter on the cyclic as any different will just be in the setup. But since the vbar uses the cyclic servos inputs on the tail control i bet you get more consistent piro rates (*** Unqualified Statement *** :) ).
Caleb Phillips
05-04-2008, 09:03 PM
I think the difference is seen if there is a lag in the gyro. The more the lag, the weirder things become especially in pirouetting maneuvers.
GB123
05-06-2008, 10:05 AM
The Vbar is suppose to be optimized for piro maneuvers, but yet when I do them, they come out kind of weird and not very flat. As tight as my rolls and flips are I need a lot of stick deflection to do piros. It seems like the gyros are just fighting these maneuvers. Now, if I'm having trouble with a 3 axis system, what is a 2 axis system going to be like. That's the issue preventing me from buying the sk360 until I get more feed back.
Everyone one is saying that flybarless is the wave of the future, but yet I haven't heard of any pros flying these things on a regular basis. I understand Curtis Youngblood tried the CSM system but gave up on it, which is unsettling. I figured that these systems would be ideal for f3c style of flying. Piro maneuvers are the standard for 3d flying and if these systems aren't capable of doing them accurately, they never will catch on, wave or no wave!
Caleb Phillips
05-06-2008, 11:17 AM
Piro maneuvers are the standard for 3d flying and if these systems aren't capable of doing them accurately, they never will catch on, wave or no wave!
Have you ever seen Daniel Jetschin fly?
I've seen allot of flybarless setups and GB is correct. Piro flips don't seem as tight as with the flybar equivalents. Personally i think the trade off is MORE than worth it.
int2str
05-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Piro maneuvers are the standard for 3d flying and if these systems aren't capable of doing them accurately, they never will catch on, wave or no wave!
LOL...
b55jx0zQktI
Tom and Max are fantastic pilots but the fact remains the piro flips seem to suffer from using flybarless systems. ON a heli with a flybar you can do piro flips such that the head button doesn't move at all, ive yet to see that done on a flybarless equipped helis.
GB123
05-06-2008, 12:07 PM
Nope, can't say I have. Would be nice to see a comment made from a pro about these systems though. I still have a lot of tinkering to do with my own setup. I really don't fly my Logo very often, more into flying right now and not tinkering. Sure would like to see a good kaos, Sazabo style, done with one of these systems. That would convince me and my wallet!!
Piro flips are overrated IMO.
mx400
05-30-2008, 05:57 PM
Sorry to post late but yes, any type of tight piro flip maneuvers suffer. Most of the pro's that fly flybar helis but have flown flybarless will agree that they will not piro flip as tight. I don't like flybarless for that fact and HFG knows how much I like my piro flips!
t-rexn8
06-05-2008, 01:09 PM
Piroflips are fun and challenging, certainly not overrated.
I do notice however with my flybarless T-Rex 600 I am pushing out further on the cyclic.
Joe90
06-05-2008, 11:22 PM
My opinion,
I fly both, and even with a well done piro optimisation wich use the tail gyro on mikado system, the flybar equipped model does piro more solid, but not by much. After trying both I prefer a flybarless heli with the mikado system. Better tail gyro, much crisper cyclic, more power, easier aerobatic auto, more axial flips. Only 2 downsides, less precise hovering an piro by about 3% (3% is seat of the pants, not measured, only enough to notice it when flying back to back)
Skookum
06-16-2008, 10:15 PM
I think the main reason the flybarless systems have to be so well-tuned for a good piro is servo speed and linkage + head response. Let's say you do a piro at 2 rps, which is 720 deg/s. A flybar doesn't care, because it's spinning with the blades. But a cyclic gyro has to swirl the swash to keep up. Say you have servos that are 25ms behind the action...well that's 18 degrees of phase lag. And for the small motions involved, it may be servo acceleration not speed that counts most (which manu's don't list). Generally it takes 10 degrees of phase trim error to cause some wonky behavior.
So to if head is tight, the linkage and swash and slop free, the servos are strong and fast, then the whole system has less phase lag. That also lets you set the gain higher, espec the motion-damping gain. By balancing the heli well & getting the "tail drag compensation" right, you can also reduce how much work the gyro & servos have to do.
Basically piros are a test of how solid the servo/mech gear is on a flybarless machine, because it now has to fully replace the mechanical flybar's function.
fogger
07-28-2008, 07:12 PM
I think it boils down to servo torque. On a flybar heli you obviously still have to roll cyclic, the difference is that the flybar is acting like power steering so the servos don't have to work as hard (due to bell-hiller ratio), and therefore they can keep up with the cyclic roll speed. Since on a flybarless setup your servos take the full brunt of the torsional forces placed on the main blades, they will have a harder time keeping up with the cyclic roll unless they are very strong (and to a lesser degree, fast...)
-Fog
jrohland
07-29-2008, 10:43 AM
I think some of you may be missing the point. When Les Paul invented the electric guitar, for a while some musicians tried to play the electric guitar as a louder acoustic instrument. Soon, most players understood that this is a different instrument. They learned to play it in a style more suited to it's capabilities.
This is what is happening with flybarless. Many pilots are trying to fly it just like they did the flybar'd model. It is a different instrument. It needs to played in a new way.
To say flybarless sucks because it does not do some manoeuvres like a flybar's model is like saying an electric guitar sucks because you can't play flamenco on it.
jrohland
fogger
07-29-2008, 03:54 PM
interesting analogy. You're talking aples to oranges, but here we're tallking red apples to green apples. Slight difference.
The main flight physics do not change between a heli with a mechanical (pitch & roll) gyro versus a electronic gryo, except that with the electronic version you obviously eliminate the mechanical flybar aero drag and you loose the flybar "power steering" effect. There is no physical reason, other than main blade control input force levels, that a v-bar / e-bar heli should not be able to fly precisely like a flybar equipped heli.
-Fog
Willow991
08-04-2008, 08:36 PM
I've heard the Pro-Bar has the best piro rate. But is very blade specific.
It's also very small and the target price is meant to be the cheapest of them all. The inventer (an Aussie) has stated he wants everyone to be able to aford to try flybarless.
It's meant to be out by X-Mas. So time will tell.
If you do a google search you may find it of interest. I'm using CSM untill it becomes avalible. If it does'nt stand up against the V-Bar i'll have to bite the bullet and fork out the big bucks.
Craig.
Caleb Phillips
08-04-2008, 08:51 PM
I've heard the Pro-Bar has the best piro rate. But is very blade specific.
It's also very small and the target price is meant to be the cheapest of them all. The inventer (an Aussie) has stated he wants everyone to be able to aford to try flybarless.
It's meant to be out by X-Mas. So time will tell.
If you do a google search you may find it of interest. I'm using CSM untill it becomes avalible. If it does'nt stand up against the V-Bar i'll have to bite the bullet and fork out the big bucks.
Craig.
What do you mean by best piro rate? Are you talking about cyclic rate consistency?
Also, I didn't know Carlo is an Aussie.
Willow991
08-04-2008, 10:42 PM
I meant it keeps a tight kaos (Head button stays in the same place. No up and down.)
I have'nt been able to find that much info on it and i'm only going on what i've read so far.
But from what i've found and heard it sounds promising IMO.
If it was a case of just needing one V-Bar system that'd be fine but i need at least 4 and at $700.00 each the Mrs would cut my ****s off.
The CSM setup is more than i need at this point. But i just thought i'd give the Pro-Bar a mention.
Carlo. I must admitt. The name had me wondering aswell. It's not exactly a typical Aussie name.lol
Craig.
Caleb Phillips
08-05-2008, 07:44 AM
I agree, the Probar unit should definitely give the Mikado V-bar a run for its money. From what I've seen they perform extremely well and will sell fairly cheap. All I need now is the chance to try one for myself since I'm a piro guy. Rest assured though, the Probar guys will be at IRCHA and if I get a chance to bust a move on one of their machines, I'll let you know how it goes.