Se 450, Mavrick, scale help

[bconwayls1]

Hi guys, I just got a scale Agusta fuse for my trex 450, and was wondering if Maverick-E blades will be ok to run. I have set my bird up according to finless videos, but do scale birds have different mechanical or radio settings?

[BlackTitanium]

Mavrikk E blades will work fine. I use the 335mm, for better lift and stability.
With the added weight of the fuselage, you'll need to increase your power to weight ratio.
Install the largest pinion that is rated for your motor, i.e., 430XL with 13T pinion.

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http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47740&stc=1&d=1210479705
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44114&d=1207207867

[bconwayls1]

So your saying a higher head speed??? Nice birds!! I would appreciate any advice on settings as in 3-D vs. Scale. For the most part, It is set up for a 3-D flight although I am no where near flying 3-D.

[BlackTitanium]

Yes, more head speed.
Your pitch and throttle curves should be pretty much the same as 3D.
It doesn't mean you have to fly 3D.
You'll use Normal mode for take off and landing, and Idle up for flight.

For scale flying, you'll set up for greater stability.
Full paddle weight, longer main rotor blades, 20% or more Expo.

[bconwayls1]

Perfect, nice video, still moves pretty quick with the extra weight. How about ccpm settings? Mine at 50% right now.

[BlackTitanium]

50% should be fine. How much pitch are you getting at 50%?

[bconwayls1]

Total pitch of about 20 degrees, but at -5 to +10 right now. Still need to adjust the servo throw for the rudder so it matches the stick travel, forgot what that adjustment is called. Here's a pic, even though it's just another SE and A-109 fuse, scale stuff seems to be for fun.

[Darthdrk]

Mabey its just me but flying scale, I find its more fun not flying in idle up. When I fly in idle up seems like my flight times are shorter at least by a couple minutes. Some of my helis I also have adjusted the blade pitch by increasing it a few turns on the pitch links. Sometimes adjustments are as easy as adjusting the PIT and Hov PIT levers/knobs which ever your transmitter have. The more weight the more pitch you will need. Its not necessarily a higher headspead thats always need for the heli to fly smoothly. On every scale, Im finding that each different body flys different from another , alot has to do with the shape of the body and air getting around it for lift. I find each scale body setup has a sweet spot as far as adjustments, Find that, and your heli will fly longer and your electronics will stay cooler.

[bconwayls1]

Mabey its just me but flying scale, I find its more fun not flying in idle up. When I fly in idle up seems like my flight times are shorter at least by a couple minutes. Some of my helis I also have adjusted the blade pitch by increasing it a few turns on the pitch links. Sometimes adjustments are as easy as adjusting the PIT and Hov PIT levers/knobs which ever your transmitter have. The more weight the more pitch you will need. Its not necessarily a higher headspead thats always need for the heli to fly smoothly. On every scale, Im finding that each different body flys different from another , alot has to do with the shape of the body and air getting around it for lift. I find each scale body setup has a sweet spot as far as adjustments, Find that, and your heli will fly longer and your electronics will stay cooler.

I'm glad you posted, as I would be looking for the longest flights possible. I have yet to learn how to set up and fly with idle-up, so maybe thats why I struggle with the up and down motion of my helis. ALSO, I'm glad you metioned the 2 knobs on the (JR8103 radio) I have. What is the difference? I turn both knobs, and it seems to do the same thing.

[BlackTitanium]

People seem to think that "I'm not flying 3D, so I should fly in Normal Mode".

You need to understand that your flight speed, ascend and descend should controlled by your blade pitch, not your head speed. You're flying a Helicopter, no a plane.

You want your head speed to remain constant. You must fly in idle up to maintain a constant head speed.

When you fly in normal mode, your head speed drops as you pull the throttle stick down.
You would constantly be increasing and decreasing you head speed, as the throttle stick is moved up or down.

As your head speed drops, so does your stability and control.

[Darthdrk]

I'm glad you posted, as I would be looking for the longest flights possible. I have yet to learn how to set up and fly with idle-up, so maybe thats why I struggle with the up and down motion of my helis. ALSO, I'm glad you metioned the 2 knobs on the (JR8103 radio) I have. What is the difference? I turn both knobs, and it seems to do the same thing.

Yes they seem like they do the same thing but actually they do not. One will increase pitch and lower motor speed the other will raise the motor speed and decrease the pitch. I think that how it goes. with the heli setup to its specific specifications, level swash, etc... It will be good to start out with the PIT levers neutral or centered. Actually at about midstick you should be able to flip the Idle up switch on without any erractic behavior such as heli jumping off the ground. Flying scale, my helis are all set up a little different from one another but what i just stated is a good starting point. Most of the time 98% of the time Im not flying in Idle up. Not flying in idle up also helps you to know when the battery is near its flight time. I find that alot of people like to fly their heli differently such as Higher headspeed, lower headspeed, idle up on, Idle up off... I dont think there really is a set standard. Im very comfortable with Idle up off for scale flying.

[BikeNBoatN]

In my case, (T-450, Fusuno airwolf), I have my retracts setup with my Idle-up switch. Flip to Idle-up, retract the gear. I have a 6-ch tx with a 240 gyro, so I can get away with this. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to have retracts with only a 6-ch tx.

I even take it a step further: I have Normal and Idle-1 with gear down. I spool up on the ground in Idle-1 (CC35 with soft start), take off, flip to Idle-2 to retract gear, and fly. Flip to Idle-1 to lower gear, land, then shut down going to Normal. I set my Throttle Hold to raise gear, because I have to have gear up to put the front half of the body on. So I don't shut off the motor using TH once I'm on the ground like many people do.

Those of you with a 7-ch tx, you can ignore what I said. :-)

[Darthdrk]

BT you should also know that on a ccpm and eccpm heli like most are, even in idle up off you still have that mixing going on. Even when you increase the motor speed you are also increasing the pitch at the same time and vice versa. There is nothing written in stone that says you have to fly in idle up on or off, its going to basically come down to the individual preference and what they are comfortable with. Of course you will need to be in idle up on for 3D flying this is about the only arena of flying I can see where you will really need a more constant head speed. I use to be a heli mechanic (full size) when a full size person carrying heli is flying there is built into the flight control system a comphensator which regulates the engine torque and rpms in relation to pitch and cyclic inputs. Thats why when you listen to a traffic report from a heli, in the background you can always hear changes in the interior noise in the cockpit in relation to the engine. This system is also on the gas powered or piston driven engines also. On our models, it basically works the same.in Idle up off, you still have a limited form of this mixing going on with our helis. Its not really necessary to fly idle up on. But not to get into any arguments, to each his own.

[Darthdrk]

In my case, (T-450, Fusuno airwolf), I have my retracts setup with my Idle-up switch. Flip to Idle-up, retract the gear. I have a 6-ch tx with a 240 gyro, so I can get away with this. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to have retracts with only a 6-ch tx.

I even take it a step further: I have Normal and Idle-1 with gear down. I spool up on the ground in Idle-1 (CC35 with soft start), take off, flip to Idle-2 to retract gear, and fly. Flip to Idle-1 to lower gear, land, then shut down going to Normal. I set my Throttle Hold to raise gear, because I have to have gear up to put the front half of the body on. So I don't shut off the motor using TH once I'm on the ground like many people do.

Those of you with a 7-ch tx, you can ignore what I said. :-)

Man, you have figured out about the most logical way to hook up retracts with a 6ch heli radio. I really never thought of that, mabey because it was to easy. Thanks for the heads up. I can do this on my Optic 6 because it has that feature but i cant do it with the stock Esky 6Channel radios.

[BlackTitanium]

Yes, that is true about the mixing, but it is your throttle curve that is not constant in normal mode.
It goes from 0 to 100% throttle.

For example, Normal = 0-25-50-75-100. As you descend from high altitude, throttle stick down, your motor speed decreases. Plus the more the blades pitch, more resistance equals slower rotation.
So, when you descend, you're slowing down the rotation with both the blade pitch and the throttle.
This will affect your stability, tail authority and control.

Idle = 100-95-90-95-100 As you move the throttle from + to -, your motor speed increases to compensate for the resistance of the blade pitch.

You don't have to use 100% throttle.
Just experiment to find the best balance of head speed and flight time, i.e:
90-85-80-85-90
85-80-75-80-85
80-75-70-75-80
... etc

[bconwayls1]

Yes, that is true about the mixing, but it is your throttle curve that is not constant in normal mode.
It goes from 0 to 100% throttle.

For example, Normal = 0-25-50-75-100. As you descend from high altitude, throttle stick down, your motor speed decreases. Plus the more the blades pitch, more resistance equals slower rotation.
So, when you descend, you're slowing down the rotation with both the blade pitch and the throttle.
This will affect your stability, tail authority and control.

Idle = 100-95-90-95-100 As you move the throttle from + to -, your motor speed increases to compensate for the resistance of the blade pitch.

You don't have to use 100% throttle.
Just experiment to find the best balance of head speed and flight time, i.e:
90-85-80-85-90
85-80-75-80-85
80-75-70-75-80
... etc

If my main concern is keeping the head speed up, but still being slightly afraid of drilling it into the ground when pulling down on the collective (negative pitch) can I just have very little negative pitch without overpeeding the head?

[BlackTitanium]

If my main concern is keeping the head speed up, but still being slightly afraid of drilling it into the ground when pulling down on the collective (negative pitch) can I just have very little negative pitch without overpeeding the head?

Yes, you can do that.
Instead of a 0-100 linear curve, on your idle up pitch curves, you can program them the same as Normal mode pitch curves.

[bconwayls1]

Thanks! I will be afraid to hit that switch for the first time......yikes. If set up correctly, I should not see a change when flipping over, right? Nevermind answered my own question, thanks so much guys!

[BlackTitanium]

Thanks! I will be afraid to hit that switch for the first time......yikes. If set up correctly, I should not see a change when flipping over, right? Nevermind answered my own question, thanks so much guys!


Depending on your stick position, you may hear a slight motor rpm change, but your blade pitch will be the same.

[BikeNBoatN]

Something else you could do on Normal mode, is to have your throttle curve something like 0,85,90,95,100. That will keep your motor speed up even at low stick settings. I have my Normal setup like that, even though like I posted earlier, I do all my flying in Idle-up.

Hey Darth, you're right, I also use an Optic6 tx. I was one of the first guys at our field with a "Spektrumized" Optic6, when the only 2.4Ghz radios available were the infamous DX6. At the time, that was hot stuff, running on 2.4Ghz, but at the same time having full programming features of the O6. Since it still works just fine, and since a GY240 doesn't require a radio channel, and since I'm just flying scale (no 3D), and I have no desire to go to a bigger heli, I'm still one of the few guys using a "Spektrumized" O6, with retracts.

[bconwayls1]

Something else you could do on Normal mode, is to have your throttle curve something like 0,85,90,95,100. That will keep your motor speed up even at low stick settings. I have my Normal setup like that, even though like I posted earlier, I do all my flying in Idle-up.

Hey Darth, you're right, I also use an Optic6 tx. I was one of the first guys at our field with a "Spektrumized" Optic6, when the only 2.4Ghz radios available were the infamous DX6. At the time, that was hot stuff, running on 2.4Ghz, but at the same time having full programming features of the O6. Since it still works just fine, and since a GY240 doesn't require a radio channel, and since I'm just flying scale (no 3D), and I have no desire to go to a bigger heli, I'm still one of the few guys using a "Spektrumized" O6, with retracts.

Sounds about right, I guess I have been thinking of nitro, and overspeeding things without matching pitch/throttle curves.

[BlackTitanium]

Something else you could do on Normal mode, is to have your throttle curve something like 0,85,90,95,100. That will keep your motor speed up even at low stick settings.

That's perfect! :noteworthy:noteworthy

Why didn't I think of that? Doh!

[BlackTitanium]

In my case, (T-450, Fusuno airwolf), I have my retracts setup with my Idle-up switch. Flip to Idle-up, retract the gear. I have a 6-ch tx with a 240 gyro, so I can get away with this. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to have retracts with only a 6-ch tx.

I even take it a step further: I have Normal and Idle-1 with gear down. I spool up on the ground in Idle-1 (CC35 with soft start), take off, flip to Idle-2 to retract gear, and fly. Flip to Idle-1 to lower gear, land, then shut down going to Normal. I set my Throttle Hold to raise gear, because I have to have gear up to put the front half of the body on. So I don't shut off the motor using TH once I'm on the ground like many people do.

Those of you with a 7-ch tx, you can ignore what I said. :-)

I have a 7-ch TX, and wanted to do just what you're doing.
Retracts up, in Idle up. Retracts down in Normal.

I asked in the forums and asked JR, but got no answer as to how to set up DX7 to do this. :arggg:

[BikeNBoatN]

The only reason I can get away with it on my setup, is because I have a GY240 gyro that doesn't use remote gain. I plug the retract servo into my gyro channel (ch 5 on my Optic6), then set the gyro gain below 50 in Normal/Idle-1, and above 50 in Idle-2. Works like a charm because retract servos are either fully up, or fully down.

If you are like most people with a 401 gyro, you can't do that because you're using all the channels except ch-7. And even using p-mixes, I don't know how you'd tie ch-7 to the flight mode switch.

I suppose if you're really dead set on having the retracts tied to the flight mode switch, you could always downgrade to a 240. The 240 works just fine for scale flying. For me it doesn't really matter, flying scale I don't need the extra control (faster piro's, remote gain, better tail hold backwards, etc.) that a 401 has.

[BlackTitanium]

The only reason I can get away with it on my setup, is because I have a GY240 gyro that doesn't use remote gain. I plug the retract servo into my gyro channel (ch 5 on my Optic6), then set the gyro gain below 50 in Normal/Idle-1, and above 50 in Idle-2. Works like a charm because retract servos are either fully up, or fully down.

If you are like most people with a 401 gyro, you can't do that because you're using all the channels except ch-7. And even using p-mixes, I don't know how you'd tie ch-7 to the flight mode switch.

I suppose if you're really dead set on having the retracts tied to the flight mode switch, you could always downgrade to a 240. The 240 works just fine for scale flying. For me it doesn't really matter, flying scale I don't need the extra control (faster piro's, remote gain, better tail hold backwards, etc.) that a 401 has.

I see!
Darn!
That wouldn't work for my Agusta and Airwolf, because they use a proportional servo.