Kontronik Jazz programming issue

[erwin_seow]

Hi all,

Do you guys see a difference in headspeeds if you spooled up with these 2 methods? My throttle hold is set at -5%

1) Method one

Normal curve : 0, 75, 75, 75, 75
Idle 1 : 80, 80, 80, 80, 80

Do not apply throttle hold when you plug in the battery (If throttle stick is not lowest,the ESC will NOT initialise at this point). Put your throttle stick in the lowest position to initialise the ESC. Spool up the heli by increasing the throttle stick in normal mode.... then switch to idle1.

1) Method Two

Normal curve : 0, 75, 75, 75, 75
Idle 1 : 80, 80, 80, 80, 80

Apply throttle hold when you plug in the battery (The ESC will initialise at this point). Switch to Idle 1. Switch the Throttle hold to spool up the heli.

Anyone sees differences in Headspeeds?

Thanks!

[OICU812]

You can not spool up with anything but a flat curve or your esc will not time itself this is why option 1 is not working. Always spool up in a flat curve as you do on your option 2 and there will be no issue. The problem with option 1 is there is a step there from the zero to the flat number etc....

[outspokin1]

Does this mean the governor does not work if you spool up in normal mode ?
I'm confused !!

[Big Fil]

It'll spool up fine in normal mode so long as you have a flat throttle curve all the way across in normal and start via clicking off TH. If you have a 0 for your first curve point it will not work. Just spool up in idle 1 or 2.

[billyd]

The Jazz governer goes through an automatic calibration whenever you plug in a new battery. You need to input a constant gain number from your Tx throttle curve and keep the blades at zero pitch until the rpm's reach steady state. The governer will now attempt to maintain that rpm throughout the flight. If your throttle curve is not flat, your governer will not be properly calibrated, and may not function correctly.

I don't bother with a normal mode, I just start up with it in a typical idle up pitch curve (0, 25,50,75,100) and flat throttle curve (I use 70%) and use the throttle hold to initialize the esc. When I'm ready I flip off the throttle hold with the pitch/throttle stick at center stick (for zero pitch) and spool up. By the way, it's also very important for Vstabi to initialize with zero pitch in the blades too if you are running flybarless.

[Klinger]

By the way, it's also very important for Vstabi to initialize with zero pitch in the blades too if you are running flybarless.

Where did you hear this, first i've heard of it, normally i initialize v-stabi at bottom stick without issue but have also done it mid stick!

[billyd]

Where did you hear this, first i've heard of it, normally i initialize v-stabi at bottom stick without issue but have also done it mid stick!


Well when I first setup my heli I started it up with negative pitch and the heli went crazy tried to do a chicken dance on me. So I changed to a zero pitch start and added the jazz governer mode and everything was fine.... so I made an assumption.

There's logic to it, because the gyros need a few seconds to initialize and negative pitch (or positive pitch) on spool up would add vibration to the system while the gyros were trying to establish a baseline.

But perhaps it was just a weird glitch with my system. What is your pitch % set to at bottom stick?

[erwin_seow]

Thanks for your replies! In the back of my mind I assumed that method 1 was the more "correct" one. I guess I was wrong. I remember seeing the CC 85HV setup video by finless and method 1 was mentioned by finless. Also, I assumed that for method 1, the ESC would sense a true "0" (throttle stick at the lowest point). Where as in method 2, the ESC senses a TH (-5%). So it thinks that the TH position is "0" (Which is not correct).

Any comments?

Out of curiosity..does anyone use method 1 and do not see any issues with HS?

Thanks!

[helicraze]

Does the headspeed in gov mode drop as the lipo becomes discharged or is it governing RPM? Its not proportional to the KV rating and cell voltage?

[OICU812]

Jazz needs a flat curve period.

[ozace]

I am surprised, often on my Jazz equipt helicopters i start in normal mode with a 0, 80,80,80,80 throttle curve. This allows me to use the throttle stick to spool up. Once at mid stick i can switch to stunt mode with a complete flat line and fly. If for some reason i stay in normal mode to putt around i have never had an issue as long as the stick is kept above 25% travel and the esc sees a flat line. The only time i have ever had a problem is when i move the stick into the "moving" part of the throttle line and it gets confused.

[helicraze]

same as you ozace. Does anyone know th answer to my questions 2 posts back about speed?

[Klinger]

same as you ozace. Does anyone know th answer to my questions 2 posts back about speed?

I'd say it does try to maintain a constant HS providing there's enough headroom in the gov setting and also remembering that as pack voltage drops you may not get the same power available when doing aggressive manouvers which then may cause a drop in HS. Its a Jazz, just set a flat line and go fly! :)

[ozace]

The govenor mode will try to hold the headspeed you have set (via slider or throttle points) until the pack can no longer deliver then the headspeed will decrease (but you pack will be killed if you go that low).
Headroom is why it works. The Jazz has inbuilt headroom to allow for pack voltage stabilization and usually we run the gov mode at 85-90% to allow a little more.

You will find the Jazz cannot run a motor as hard as some other esc's for this reason and the auto functions it performs to keep things as efficient as possible.

[helicraze]

thanks

[billyd]

I suppose if you have a throttle curve with 0 80 80 80 80 and move the stick to center quick enough it would work. But I don't see the point in it. It's just as simple to use throttle hold and 80 80 80 80 80 and then you can carefully put the stick at center (for zero pitch) prior to turning off throttle hold and initializing the esc.

The Jazz needs zero pitch on the first spool up off a new battery to get the calibration correct, according to the documentation.

ps. I've heard that the Jazz needs a lot of headroom to work best, and people smarter than me have said here on the freak that 75% is the max gain you should use on its governer. Perhaps this is wrong, I'd love to get someone on here from Kontronic to speak up and let us know what the max gain is......

[Team-MAYHEM]

True...the jazz does hold RPM's better at 75% throttle and a bigger pinion, but, you will loose flight time as a result of it being less efficient.

I run my 450 like this and only get 4 mins @75% as opposed to 5 mins running it a 90% with a smaller pinion. So, its up to you...

[OICU812]

Marshall,,,, yes but sometimes depending on motor it will like the higher lever gearing, able to put out much more power. I have had several instances such as yourself where running motor A for example at 90% yields cool running and decent flight time and motor A then with larger pinion and 75% having less flight time as you mention and abit warmer everything but much more consitency which covers the lipo sag as well as just more power throughout the flight...Actros for example need to be geared high with Jazz to be optimum imho, as the tangos as well.

[ozace]

"To start the motor push the slider towards full throttle. The Jazz will ramp up the
motor RPM in a few seconds in open mode. When the designated RPM is reached
the Jazz switches over to close loop speed. The more the slider position comes to
full throttle, the higher is the designated motor RPM.
With the slider back in motor-off position the motor will be switched off. Be aware
not to do so in flight, otherwise it would take some long seconds to start the motor
again.
The range of RPM selected by the slider is self adjusted by the Jazz. Its done when
the motor is started for the first time after the battery is connected"

This is lifted straight from the Jazz manual, no mention of 0deg pitch for calibration or any other procedures needed. It seems to be wait for the soft start to end then pick a speed. It makes no mention of flicking out of hold (although it works).



"
In Heli-Mode the JIVE operates with active RPM control. This means, that the motor RPM will be kept constant and changes of the load and the falling battery voltage will be compensated, as long as the motor and battery capacity allows this. So it is not necessary to programm a throttle curve in the Tx to stabilize the RPM. This RPM control works only if the speed control is mounted in the helicopter. With no load it is possible that the motor jerks.
Just plug the receiver cable of the JIVE in a free slot of the Rx which can be independently operated from the Tx with a slider. Program the JIVE to Heli-Mode using this slider.
To start the motor push the slider towards full throttle. The JIVE will ramp up the motor RPM in a few seconds in open mode. When the designated RPM is reached the JIVE switches over to close loop speed. The more the slider position comes to full throttle, the higher is the designated motor RPM.
With the slider back in motor-off position the motor will be switched off. Be aware not to do so in flight, otherwise it would take too long to start the motor again.
The range of RPM, selected by the slider, is self adjusted by the JIVE. It is done when the motor is started for the first time after the battery is connected."

This is straight from the Jive manual, pretty much identical in lack of need for anything other than dial up a speed.

Please , if any one has more info from Kontronik please share.

[ozace]

More
from 2006 Kontronik support
"Assign a slider knob for ESC throttle control, program the ESC into mode4 using this slider. With everything installed in the heli plug in the battery and keep the rotorblades at 0deg (so it wont lift) Start the motor by the slider and the ESC will ramp up and after a few seconds stabilize, you are now ready for flight.

If you want higher headspeed slide the slider further, to stop slide it all the way down"

and

"Once the ESC has ramped up and stabilized headspeed its properly calibrated and ready for flight. No need to disconnect after this, except when you are done flying.. http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

The only programming required for the Jazz is setting it to mode4, the rest is all done during spool-up prior to flight."

and

"The Beat do the calibration the first time its spooled up to max rpm after its been configured to mode4 and then store this data. So if something in the system have been changed (diff. motor/different pinions or diff. battery) it needs to be reset and recalibrated.

The Jazz do the calibration each time you spool it up, and it readjust if you command a different throttle setting on the go. Thats why you do not have to reprogram/calibrate a Jazz if you change something in the system."

When Kontronic is asked about the govenor mode the answer is always simple, program mode 4 and fly, maybe its us that overcomplicate things.

I am sure modern lipos and data recording gear highlight the headspeed differences from pack to pack but i think its more to do with no 2 packs being identical rather than any voodoo to set up the esc.

[billyd]

I'll have to dig up my manual. It's possible I dreamed it, lol. Perhaps they have made changes to it over the years. I bought my first Jazz several years back. I apologize if I gave bad info I will be more careful in the future.

[ozace]

I'll have to dig up my manual. It's possible I dreamed it, lol. Perhaps they have made changes to it over the years. I bought my first Jazz several years back. I apologize if I gave bad info I will be more careful in the future.

Billyd, i just posted the info i gathered over the years. I do know there was much confusion way back when the Jazz first came out as the Beat and Smile before it, required calibration that the Jazz didnt.
Kontronik have such a simple explanation of the govenor mode that it frustates the hell out of me. I just cant believe its a simple as they make out(BUT maybe it is).

I suppose at the end of the day we just have to continue with what works for us. The throttle hold method doesnt work for me(matter of preference not performance) but does for so many. I dont know of anyone in the english speaking world using a slider for throttle so that doesnt help which brings me back to the way i have been doing it for 5+ years now.

Please let us know if you find any more info.

[billyd]

Ok it is in the manual, I'm not crazy.

Page 6 under the heli section. It says to spool up in 0° pitch so that the governer maintains the same headspeed each flight.

[Wbird]

Guys, you are wasting precious flying time (or building time) or whatever.

Mode 4. Simple and will work.

Like Shawn says "set a flat curve and go fly".

Another thought, I lost a rex 450 because I tried to roll to inverted in normal mode. (Forgot) By the time I realized what was going on the blades were still and it was heading to its death. Just last summer I watched a friend maiden a new Logo 600 3D flybarless and did the exact same thing. He tried to bring it in and hover it on the deck inverted and it just kept dropping untill it smashed itself to pieces at his feet.

Don't set a normal mode!!!! end of story.

Normal mode is for spooling up a nitro or gasser. Throttle hold and soft spool up are for electrics.