12X UPDATE! (Edited per JR's request)

[oteskate]

Per the request of JR representatives, I have been politely asked to remove this post outlining the facts of their new release... the 12X. Since removing posts are not allowed on this site, editing my original post is the best I can do to meet their requests.

On a personal note, I will maintain that from all the research that I have done on my own (reading the available manual thoroughly), IMHO I feel that the 12X is a TX geared for the advanced giant scale plane and jet pilots who wish to fly the best feeling and performing TX on the market and utilizing all the new software features offered in this radio. However, for heli pilots (even the best in the world i.e. Szabo, etc who are still flying DX7's), I do not feel that the software improvements nor the 12 channels offered, will be necessary for any heli pilot of any level.

For the price, I personally will be moving up from my current 9303 PCM to the X9303 2.4. Due to the lower number of channels, the X9303 will have a faster data transmission than the 12X, which will IMO plays a bigger role than 12 channels. The 9303 will continue to have the fastest processor and the ease of programming which we come to find in JR radios. I will be saving my extra $800+ and putting that into more heli's or fuel to fly.

I hope that this RE-post has satisfied the JR representatives and helped guide JR users (or potentially new JR users) in finding what TX best fits their needs for the money.

[MXRACERX43]

I sold my 10x to buy a 2.4 9303. I miss the fell of the 10x, but the 12xMSRP sticker shocked me into the 9303. Love my 9303 though the gimbals could be smother. The 9303 is not a cheap radio.

[Ultraviolet]

oteskate, Why did you edit your post. Too bad if JR does not like what you have to say. You are simply expressing your opinion after all. Attempting to censor public opinion regarding there product is pretty darn low, and definately uncalled for.

Anyway, the 12x is overpriced and 7 or 8 months behind schedule. A lot of potential buyers have purchased different radios.

[oteskate]

Ultra.. I agree that I shouldn't have had to edit my post, but due to the fact that this information came from a friend who has association with JR, I did not want to make it difficult on him since JR contacted him directly on the matter. I value the relationship I have with this pilot, which is why I chose to edit the post.

However, I feel that you are correct in your statements and JR should take note of your comments. With other radio manufacturers producing high end products, you cannot expect happy customers when you promote a product only to push it back time and time again.

I believe that by requesting this post to be removed, JR has opened up many more questions as to why they would want facts on their flagship radio withheld from the public. My post did nothing but state the true facts of any radio running that number of channels and outlined my decision as to why I'm going to only move up to the X9303 rather than the 12X.

I will continue to support and fly JR radios, however I feel they overstepped their bounds by going as far as they did.

[huskynox]

I posted this in this thread ( http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=71478 ) 2 weeks ago: (I'm sticking with my X9303. Great radio!)

""Not to sound negative, but this seems more like a planker radio... I was actually planning on getting one, but I can't see it now.

I'm currently flying an X9303. The only thing I see improved is the back light on the screen and the ball bearing gimbals. The metal case is of course nice. BUT, I just can't justify those items for trading in my X9303....

One thing that really turned me off is I can't transfer my models from my X9303 to the 12X. THAT IS :thumbdown: :bs

It has a lot of bells and whistles for plankers that's for sure :thumbup:""

[jadams1]

Oteskate,
I’m the Technical Director of Spektrum/ Horizon Hobby. Your statement about the 12X being “slower” than the X9303 is incorrect. In fact the latency (response time) of the 12X is slightly lower (faster) than the X9303. Jon Kos who tests latency results using a very sophisticated computer program that collects several thousand latency data points posted 12X latency results recently comparing the 12X to most other 2.4gHz systems including the X9303. These are posted on Run Ryder. The results clearly show that the 12X is slightly faster than the X9303. You are mistaken that the 12X processing is slower than the X9303.
John Adams Technical Director Spektrum/ Horizon Hobby.

[huskynox]

Nice to see Spektrum visits the site when someone is negative about a product, but when someone has a question/problem..... all I hear is crickets......

Must be concerned the X9303 is going to out sell the 12X in the heli world....? At double the price I would be too.

Still, I was actually going to buy one until I read the 12X doesn't talk to any other JR radio :mad: No model transfer from my X9303 :confused:

Thanks for the first post.....

[Ultraviolet]

[QUOTE=huskynox;675725]Nice to see Spektrum visits the site when someone is negative about a product, but when someone has a question/problem..... all I hear is crickets......

QUOTE]

LOL

[oteskate]

John,

Hello and thanks for the information on the 12X. I will be sure to take a look at the test results related to the latency of the 12X in comparison to the X9303.

Isn't it a known fact that that the more channels, the longer for the data transfer?? I've read reports of such relating to all radios rather it be Futaba, JR or whomever. There's another few posts floating around on this site which mention the same.

Just to set the record straight... I am not being negative on any JR product. I currently use JR radios, servos and gyros and have been a JR user as far back as I can remember, but my original post (which I'm not sure most saw) was focused on facts and opinions from a reputable source as to if the 12X is really the right TX for us heli pilots to move up to. I still feel that after reading the manual available from the website and speaking with those using the TX, both in and out of the USA... I, and others feel that this radio is simply geared more for the competitive fixed-wing and jet pilots utilizing sophisticated mixes and many channels and will not offer much more for the $$ than an X9303.

And yes, Husky.... I agree. I posted my original thread last night and it was this morning that I was notified that they wanted it removed. They jumped on that pretty quick, but yes... when you have questions or problems with product, they're nowhere to be found.

Like Husky... I'm sticking with a new X9303 and saving my $$ to fly, fly, fly.

[HFG]

You will have a longer latency using more channels ONLY if the datarate is held constant.Given the large bandwidth of the ISM band this isn't an issue.

[terrybeb]

Well this kinda leaves a sour taste in my mouth. It is a different perspective I'm seeing of JR.

[Bobbyk]

I think there is always a good way and a bad way to handle a situation.

Whilst I commend you Mr Adams for clarifying the situation, I think the best way was to let him keep his original comment and replying to the points he raised as you did I your reply, but to ask him to delete the post because you did not like it, sound like you guys have something to hide.

I assume the 12x will be an improvement over any other TX you have out at the moment, but reading what he has to say, he was letting the heli world know that the 12x is geared towards the airplane pilot market, and the 9303 is a better fit for the heli pilot, now that up to the readers if they still want to spend the extra and get 12x.

The forums belongs to the people, and you and your company need to learn from this, anyway if someone makes a wrong comment they will be corrected.

Thanks

Robert

[Pinecone]

The other way to lower latency on a high channel count system is to not send all channels with every packet. Things like gyro gain can be send every 2 - 3 packet and still be fine.

[oteskate]

I took a look at the test charts on Runryder produced by JKos and the tests show that the 12X 2.4 has a lower latency (32.5 avg.) than the X9303 2.4 on an AR7000 (36.2 avg.). However, my question is then why, from my source currently flying the 12X, mention that the 12X "felt" slower. As I mentioned in my previous post, which was removed per request of JR, the lag was noticeable enough to this pilot that he had to compensate his technique to fit the speed of the 12X in comparison to his previous TX, which I believe was either the DX7 or the X9303.

I guess the overall question in my mind is after looking at the DX7 test results (27.5 avg. on AR7000) and comparing it to the 12X and X9303 (running the same AR7000), why is the DX7 so much "faster" and yet the "high end" JR TX's are "slower" by a substatial difference??

[lovetofly]

I took a look at the test charts on Runryder produced by JKos and the tests show that the 12X 2.4 has a lower latency (32.5 avg.) than the X9303 2.4 on an AR7000 (36.2 avg.). However, my question is then why, from my source currently flying the 12X, mention that the 12X "felt" slower. As I mentioned in my previous post, which was removed per request of JR, the lag was noticeable enough to this pilot that he had to compensate his technique to fit the speed of the 12X in comparison to his previous TX, which I believe was either the DX7 or the X9303.

I guess the overall question in my mind is after looking at the DX7 test results (27.5 avg. on AR7000) and comparing it to the 12X and X9303 (running the same AR7000), why is the DX7 so much "faster" and yet the "high end" JR TX's are "slower" by a substatial difference??

I reviewed the latency information from JKos, and you need to keep in mind that the DX7 is just 7 channels and they are 1024 resolution. The 12X is 12 channels, with 2048 resolution. The X9303 is also 2048 resolution (when used with the 9 chan receiver). When you consider all this, and the extra bits needed for the increased channels and resolution, the 12X specs (at least on paper) are respectable. Of course we all wish they were even better, but then you'd have to create a new protocol (i.e. DSM3) and keep it backwards compatible with DSM and DSM2, etc... This would likely cause the radio to be delayed another couple of years and frankly it would put them out of business.

So the critical comparisons are:
DX7/AR7000: 27.5ms avg.
X9303/AR7000: 36.2ms avg.
12X/R1221: 32.5ms avg.

I'd imagine the 12X with an AR7000 would be a bit faster than 32.5ms as well. I agree with oteskate that it's a bit confusing how the high end JR radios are slower, but considering the channels/resolution considerations of the 12X/R1221, the 12X results do look decent.

I also wish there was a heli specific version of the 12X, but after reviewing all of this, I'm still not cancelling my 12X order. The 12X has just enough extras to (almost) make it worth it. Heck, just being able to turn off the beeper is a marriage saver that's worth every penny to me. :)