Flight Report w 500 3D and 600E Comparison

[LJS]

Hi All,

Well, I got a chance to wring her out a bit today. I’ve got to tell you that I really love this heli. It is leaps and bounds better than my Swift which it replaced. It is so much smoother than my Swift. It is also so much more honest. Fast forward flight is like it is on rails. What a dream machine!

I’ve still got to dial it in a bit. The tail was dropping in right rolls, so I mixed in a little up elevator with right aileron (7%, but I might knock it down to 5%). And it feels a little sluggish on cyclic. I think I’ll dial it up to 65% from 60%. But this is going to be a great heli.

It was a bit windy, so it might not be fair to compare it to my 600E yet, but I have to say that my 8 lb, 8S 600E appears to fly better. Slightly better tracking, slightly more stable in upright and inverted hovers, and much better in tic tocs. I was a bit disappointed with the tic tocs of the 500, but maybe they will improve with more cyclic. A fair analogy comparison of the two might be like an Audi A4 (500 3D) and an Audi A8 (600E). The 600E flies like a tight cruiser, while the 500 3D flies like a sports car.

For those of you who have both, do you agree?

Anyway, next time out I’ll fly both the 500 3D and the 600E and do a direct side-by-side comparison. I’ll keep you posted.

Keep ‘em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[Mathias]

Well, I do only have the Logo 500, but from what I've heard, the 500 flies way better that the 600...

Again, thats what I've heard,not what I have experienced myself. - I do only have the L500...

[Flybar-less]

Having experience setting up many helis includung the Logos and Trexs, there is always a learning curve with something new. Trexs are a pretty good heli, and are pretty simple to setup. Logos are a very simple build, Vbar is a very wide open and powerful flybarless platform. It can be programmed for all kinds of helis and flying styles. Generally a setup takes a few weeks to get dialed in. I have a few Vbar Logos dedicated to experimenting with different setups, power systems, and blades. What used to take changing parts for setup changes now can be done with software. Once a Logo Vbar is setup, there is very little mainainence, and it will outfly any other heli.

Cool thing is, we have completely setup a new Logo 600 3D for a top pilot in 2 flights with the help of a bluetooth connection for inflight tweaking.

[LJS]

Hi All,

Sounds good. Keep in mind that I'm comparing a 7 lb 10oz, 8S, Neu powered 600E to a 6 lb 5 oz, 6S, Z30 powered 500 3D. One is .50 size. The other is .30 size. It doesn't surprise me that the 600E flies better because generally bigger flies better, but maybe that will change.

It did take me a few weeks to get my 600E dialed in. Maybe I will get the 500 3D dialed in as well. But right now, the 600E flies better. I will keep you posted as people seem interested. Most of my friends have asked me how they compare.

In the meantime, any advice on how to improve the tictoc performance would be appreciated. I'm flying SAB 550s (stiff) blades, and running 2100 headspeed.

Please don't misunderstand me. This Logo 500 3D is one FANTASTIC flying .30 size heli. I absolutely love it.

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[markjj]

You need to try the 600 on 10s with v~ bar, it's a different league....

[LJS]

Hi Mark,

I believe you! But I'm planning on a 10 S Logo 600 3D with V-Bar as my next heli (oh, that's probably what you meant). Can't wait, but will have to until next season. I'm way over budget for this year.

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[Big Fil]

OK I have a 600E that I just got back in the air after a few months downtime due to stealing the gyro and rx for the Logo500. The Trex has a more stable feel to it but the 500 outflies it in every aspect of performance. The Logo has an extremely true center for lack of a better term. Rolls are extremely axial and the tail seems to lead far better on backwards flying and loops. Tic tocs are not even a fair comparison. The Rex just feels like a pig in the air compaired to the logo. With the rex tic tocs feel like you need to stay under them to hold altitude where the logo feels like you have to ease off them or your climbing while doing them.

I notice that your headspeed is around 2100 and lots including myself find 2300 to be the sweet spot. That will quicken up the tic tocs if nothing else.

[BruceW]

As Big Fil mentioned, the Logo 500 (with flybar) needs 2300 head speed with about 7.5->8 degrees of cyclic and +/-13 pitch to come alive. Also, the Rotortech 560mm blades seem to give the best punch since they have a wider chord than the 550s (53mm vs 51mm). I think the SABs that you have are 51mm wide but correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh ya, a newer battery helps also.

[LJS]

Hi Bruce,

You're probably right on the SAB blades. They don't seem to have a lot of pop in them. I think that is one of the problems with the tictocs. Maybe that and the headspeed like Phil mentioned.

I've increased the cyclic to 65% and will try that out at lunch. There was no binding when I did. I was impressed by that.

I don't know Phil. My 8S 600E is great in tic tocs. I can easily climb doing them if I want to.

Phil, I haven't figured out the backwards loops with the 500 3D yet either. So far, they are very small compared to my 600E. But maybe I just have to be more aggressive in getting the tail down coming in. I'll do more today.

But I can't thank you guys enough for the ideas. When I had trouble getting my 600E dialed in the guys on HF really helped me get it flying right. Now it's just about perfect (or as perfect as I can appreciate given my skills).

Thanks again guys and keep 'em flying!:YeaBaby:
LJS

[billyd]

That's not my experience (600 to 5003d comparison). Of course, my 500 3d is flybarless, so that may have something to do with it, but I would compare the 500 3d to a sports car and the 600e to a school bus. And my 600e has a Neu motor (6s though), but power is not the issue. The 500 3d simply changes direction instantaneously where the 600e slides a little when changing directions. The 600e is more stable, but we are not using these helis to hover, and it is the lower stability that allows for more extreme maneuvers.

I will say that 90% of it is your setup, and what you are using electronics wise. So unless you have similar stuff on both, you're really comparing apples to oranges.

[Mathias]

...with about 7.5->8 degrees of cyclic and +/-13 pitch...Bruce, I can't see how you can get 8 degrees of cyclic and +/-13 of pitch. On my Logo 500 flybar, I'm probably running 8+++ of aileron cyclic pitch at 70% swash mix (max before binding). At elevator I've set the swash mix to 48% - thats the max value I can go before the servos starts binding.

It looks like the pins from the yoke are hitting the swashplate.

For certain not 7,5 - 8 degrees...

How?


Thanks,I've increased the cyclic to 65% and will try that out at lunch. There was no binding when I did. I was impressed by that.LJS, try the Trex 600 440mm flybar for more cyclic response. Do also try some harder dampeners like the Extra Hard Mikado ones or K&B dampeners.

BTW: Bruce, have you tried lower HS with the K&B's Orange ones?

[LJS]

Hi All,

Good point BillyD. I'm not a stick banger, and like to fly big. So there is an element of personal preference here. I can see where some would prefer the agility of the 500 3D if they like to fly tight.

Mathias, you're running 70% on your cyclic? I should have tried that. I didn't have any binding at 65% but I didn't think of trying more. I will look at that tonight.

Thanks again guys.:noteworthy Maybe if I get it dialed in, it will become my favorite heli also.

LJS

[Mathias]

Yes, I'm running 70% aileron swash mix, but not elevator as stated in my previous post. It starts binding at about 50%...

[BruceW]

Bruce, I can't see how you can get 8 degrees of cyclic and +/-13 of pitch. On my Logo 500 flybar, I'm probably running 8+++ of aileron cyclic pitch at 70% swash mix (max before binding). At elevator I've set the swash mix to 48% - thats the max value I can go before the servos starts binding.

It looks like the pins from the yoke are hitting the swashplate.

For certain not 7,5 - 8 degrees...

How?


I do get some binding on the elevator servo where the horn hits the inside of the frame if I'm at full pitch but I'm never applying full pitch and cyclic at the same time. Also, the swash ball attached to the elevator servo will bind on the bottom of the anti-rotation bracket as well at full pitch. If I'm doing that I'm probably trying to save it and at that stage I won't be worrying about binding;).

My swash mixes are slightly different between elevator and aileron to get equal cyclic movement. Not sure what they are right now since I don't have the radio nearby but I'll check later. You will want equal cyclic during piro flips so the stick stirring is consistent. I also found that enabling EXPO in the swash menu makes the pitch range seem more consistent. As an experiment, I turned it off on my TRex450 and could notice the non-linear affect. Also, I had to increase the swash percentages when I turned it on to get equal pitch/cyclic between the on and off state.


BTW: Bruce, have you tried lower HS with the K&B's Orange ones?I flew around in normal mode at the end of a flight not too long ago and I'm guessing the head speed was probably about 1900 - 2000. The head still seemed very stable to me so my experience with the orange K&B dampeners is that that work just fine at all head speeds. The difference is that I sanded mine down so I could fit the plastic ring on the outside.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=297&pictureid=2137

[LJS]

Hi Mathias,

I adjusted my cyclic to where I just started to get binding. Here's what I got:

- 70% aileron
- 67% elevator
- 60% pitch

The elevator really helped with the tic tocs. They're much better. But at the same time, the heli now feels twitchier. I may just have to get used to it.

At lunch I flew every other flight with my 500 3D and my 600E. Someone said that I am comparing apples to oranges. I think they're right. The 500 3D is an awesome and fun .30 size heli, but it really doesn't compare to the .50 size 600E. My 8S 600E is the bees knees. It's so smooth and powerful and stable in a breeze.

I'm lucky to have them both.

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[Mathias]

Thats weird... I'm now getting 70% swash mix on elevator and +/-8 at full throws. Well, well, the main thing now is that I don't need to worry about different cyclic throws... :D

Now I just need to get rid of the vibration and I think it'll fly GOOD!

Also, I finally managed do some proper blade balancing a few days ago. Thats one problem out of the world that may had been a part of the vibration issue... I do also think I need to look closer on my blade tracking. I wonder if saw a tiny over lapping blade last flight...

If I can't get rid of the vibration after tracking the blades properly, I'll try sanding the dampeners as you did, Bruce. If the vibration still is there, I'll switch to the Extra Hard Mikado dampeners. If then not the problem disappears, I'll sell it... Just kidding! :D

LJS, that should probably do it. From what I've read, all are saying that the Logo 500/600 pretty much eats the Rex 600 hands down in performance, but maybe it is a taste thing...

[LJS]

Hi Mathias,

Even though I prefer the flight characteristics of my 600E over my 500 3D, I'm still planning on my next heli being a 10S Logo 600 3D w V-bar. All the power, the heavier weight for stability, and the agility of the Logo with the tunability of V-bar. I'm betting it will be a great combination.

I've already got my Z50-800kv.:thumbup:

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[helicraze]

Maybe you need some more time to dial it in. First flight of my logo 500 i was not too impressed. After getting another pinion and changing my settings i love it. Flies very well.

[LJS]

Hi Helicraze,

It's not that I don't love my Logo. I do. It's a very fun heli. It's just that my 8S 600E is so awesome. I used to fly plank pattern when I was a kid. And my 600E is so much like a finely tuned pattern plane. A sport heli, like the 500 3D just can't put hearts in my eyes like the 600E.

But I am going to dial the 500 in a bit more. I increased the cyclic yesterday to 70% (aileron) and 67% (elevator), but that made it too twitchy. I'm going to dial both controls down to 65% and give that a try. I really liked the way it flew at 60% (groovy), but the tic tocs seemed sluggish, so I'll try 65% as a compomise. I think I need to dial down my rudder a bit as well as I was getting some rudder input during my tictocs. My piro rate right now is blazing.

I can't wait to fly the 500 3D again, but I have to tell you that flying the 600E and the 500 3D every other flight is weird. They fly so differently! I'm going to try it a few more times because I want to fly one while the other is cooling, but it might be too much for me.

Anyway, I'm having a blast with these three helis. They really are awesome!

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[helicraze]

I use 15% expo on the rudder and 25% expo on cyclic so its easy around the centres but really get moving when i need it.

[Mercuriell]

One problem I've noted flying a fleet of helis is that you (that's me!) tend not to fine tune them for optimal performance - I sort of get unhappy with the performance of one - tweak it up then find another less than optimal. The T600 is very stable but with 8S and a 1910/1Y engine it falls way behind the perfomance of the Logos - that's my next project - move up to 10S on the T600 and put a Z50-800 motor in that I've been so happy with in the L600

[LJS]

Hi All,

John, will you go flybarless on the 10S 600E? TomC has one and says that it's king of his fleet.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Logo. I flew only it yesterday at lunch and had a blast. 65% on cyclic seems just right. It's a great flyer that I'm very happy with. There's no vibration, it's very responsive, and it is so easy to see in the air. It is leaps and bounds better than my Swift. It's just that, side by side, the 600E is more my style.

Helicraze, you'll laugh but I fly with with 50% expo on rudder (needed with the 770 3D gyro) and 40% on the cyclic. I do a few slow and four point pirouettes (upright and inverted) as part of my routine and the expo helps me keep it steady. I still have full control at the extremes, so I'm happy with it.

Keep 'em flying.:YeaBaby:
LJS

[Mercuriell]

Definitely flybarless on the T600 - I've seen Tom C''s T600 - he uses the Helicommander I think - there's also an extreme dude locally who runs T600 flybarless without any electronics - he makes it look easy to fly but he admits it's a tricky SOB in the hover :wow2:

I gonna put the Kasama head on (without flybar) and a V-Stabi unit - I wasn't really happy with it on the T600N - too lively and I was overloaded trying to tune the engine and the head - A predictable electric much better way to go.

The T600 are the utility vehicles in my fleet - they're OK flying and predictable - they're also tough as guts and quick and easy to repair - I have never written off a CF frame but have plugged and patched a few cracks - the Logos are superbly elegant and responsive - everyone who has flown one on my FF has loved them - trouble is most of them are nitro boys and the only serious electric visitor has a couple of Ion-Xs. I'm held back with the Logos as I get too emotional when they go in :(

[TomC]

Yup, my 10s Trex600e w/ heli command rigid flybarless is defintely the best flying heli in my fleet right now. I tried the HC unit on my 10s Ion-x and this worked very well but I felt that the Trex600 showed the biggest improvement with it so I switched it back over. Of course, now I want to buy another flybarless system (might try V-bar next) but I think I'll wait a bit longer for these systems to get a little less complicated, and cheaper. Think I'll just concentrate on trying 15s on my Ion-x again. I finally got my Neu 1521/2y motor back from the repair shop after 6 months waiting!

I think that John's points are valid for all heli comparisons. It's hard to compare things if both heli's are not optimised to begin with. In his case he has concluded that he should take his 8s Trex600 to 10s and run the same motor as his Logo600 3D. When he does this, he probably will find that there is not a lot of difference. Maybe the Logo's flybarred head will feel a bit more solid. However, go flybarless with both of these heli's and I doubt that there will be any significant differences.

Sorry to get a bit off topic.

Cheers,
TomC