Logo 500 3D on A123's

[Gscott]

I'm contemplating putting together a 500 to run on either 8s or 10s A123's. My main concern is power and flight duration. What type of power and flight times can I expect? I'm not into the stick banging 3D but more into the smooth big air stuff. What motor and ESC's should I be looking at?

[billyd]

I'm not super familiar with a123's but if I remember right 8s a123's are about the same as a 6s lipo setup right?

If so you need a motor around 1200 kv and the Jazz 80 is a great choice. I use the Plettenburg orbit 25 heli expert motor and it is jaw dropping on a 6s lipo and 15t (.7 mod), although 14t may be a better choice from a standpoint of heat, but my grub screw broke with the pinion installed, so I hesitate to go throught the hassle of changing it to find out. I will wait to there's a problem that forces me to remove the pinion.

If I am wrong about 8s a123 being equal to 6s lipo, please disregard this post, lol. :oops:

[ping]

About equal in voltage yes, but only 2100-2300mah. Your better off with a high voltage setup if your going to run A123 in anything. 10 cells is probably about right for a 500 with a motor around 600-800kv.

I'm thinking of putting A123's in my 500 I haven't decided for sure yet. I fly 14S A123 in my Trex 600 and can do just about anything with it, the only downside is it's very heavy almost 9lb's.

[stvjeep]

First off I do not own a Logo 500. However I have researched the A123 route extensively. Here is what you need for an A123 power system:

Motor: Tango 45-08 or TonicX A30A or Orbit 30-12 (around 800Kv)
ESC: Jazz 55-10-32 or Phoenix HV 85 (the HV 85 is $100 cheaper, but the governor is not as good)
Pinon: 16T with 153T mod 0.7 maingear (~2000 rpm, perfect for sport flying)
Battery: 10S A123 from tanicpacks or modelelectronicscorp (Tanic has balance leads the others do not, but are much cheaper)
Battery orientation: "shotgun" style (like two barrels) 6 on the bottom, 4 on top.

The above setup with 550mm blades will yield around 6 solid minutes of sport flying.

With the right charger and power source (Hyperion Duo & PS36KX) you can recharge in about 15 minutes, so with 2 packs you can fly almost continuously...

This is based on many hours of reading and around a dozen or so set-ups I have read or PM'd about...

I really want this set-up, but the repair costs of the Logo 500 are high. I am a beginner, and so i will get this after I feel my skills are such that I will not crash a lot. Because of this I'm looking at the Hurricane 550 with 8S A123. It's repair costs are 1/3 that of the Logo 500. The Logo is an amazing heli and with the V-Bar it's unbeatable...

[ping]

I had a hurricane 550 on 8S 123 and I sold it in short order I don't think you would be very happy with one. If you want some unbiased advice I would suggest either a Trex 600 or a Raptor. Both can be flown on A123 and both have very cheap replacement parts. The Trex 600 I was able to fly for 7 minutes on 12SA123 (I've since switched to 14 cells.) This was a mix of fast forward flight some light aerobatics and a little hover practice at the end. While I was setting up my gyro I was getting almost 10 minutes of just hovering. My major complaint with the Trex 600 is with weight.

The Raptor is pretty much the goto beginners helicopter, parts are cheap and can be found everywhere. You can fly one right out of the box with little to no mods and advance into the early stages of 3D with the same setup. I believe you need to widen the bottom frame to fit a shotgun style pack. Parts are cheaper for the Raptor especially the frames.

Another helicopter to look at is the Logo 10, I flew one of these for many years and a 10S A123 pack will fit unmodified right on the front of this thing (unmodified out of a dewalt pack). I noticed while pricing parts for the Logo 500 that the Logo 10 parts are really dropping in price and while still more than the Trex 600 and Raptor you'll end up with what I feel would be a better machine.

You can also wait for the Logo 400, I've been fairly impressed with the 425mm size based on my time with the Trex 500. Since it's using the same frame as the Logo 10 you shouldn't have trouble flying it on A123. My Trex 500 flies really nice on 7S A123 (but very heavy almost 2kg) I'm sure the Logo 400 will be much lighter and fly great on 6S or 7S A123. So far the only downside to the 425mm class has been the silly prices on 425mm carbon blades.

If you have specific questions about any machines shoot me a PM I've owned probably every electric helicopter over the 450 class at this point. Most I've flown or attempted to fly most on A123.

[pjpg]

I fly the 500 on 10s A123 cells. I can get about 5.30-6 min of sport flying running 2100 headspeed. I wouldnt run 8s due to shorter flights and less power if using 550 blades. I currently run a Zpower A30 800kv motor using a 22t mod .5 pinion. I have run the cc hv45 with good results but have switched to the cc hv85 to be safe. As stvjeep stated the cells need to be in shotgun or end to end form. I use a 6s and a 4s and connect in series. Mec sell solderless power tubes to assemble packs.http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/browse_product.php?pid=29 . Perfect for my needs. Packs withstand impact very well,charge a pack in 35 min, long cycle life, no worry of over discharge, lower risk of fire.

[ping]

You can charge A123 much faster my average is 13 minutes 10 amps. If you charged right off a power supply I think you could get a 10 minute charge.

If your still learning the durability, fast cycle time, and cycle life on A123 can't be beat.

[pjpg]

You can charge A123 much faster my average is 13 minutes 10 amps. If you charged right off a power supply I think you could get a 10 minute charge.

If your still learning the durability, fast cycle time, and cycle life on A123 can't be beat.

The most I can charge is 5 amps with the thunderpower 1010 charger.

[Fergus]

I also run 10s A123 in my 500. I get 5min flights at 2300rpm on a 17tooth mod.7. 14 minute charge time. They can be charged faster but it is not good for the cells to go over 4c. I use a Mastech 5020 power supply and direct charge.

Link to my setup:

http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=597499&postcount=122

Regards

Fergus

[ping]

These cells can safely handle 5C with no real depreciation in cycle life. I have over 200 cycles on one of my aircraft A123 packs, each charge has been 10 amps. I haven't been able to tell the difference between this pack and a brand new one I just build.

[Funflyer]

Fergus, how are you using the Arizona Regulator? Are you running another A123 receiver pack or did you splice the regulator in with the ESC to drop the voltage?

[stvjeep]

Also check out the MSH Protos as an alternative. It will fit 6 or 7S A123 nicely. I really like the Protos, but it still have a few new release issues (to be expected). I have no doubt though that the Logo 500 is a great choice for A123 cells. The only thing holding me back from purchasing one is the cost of parts. I'm going for a 425mm size heli as I am a beginner.

[vicrc]

First off I do not own a Logo 500. However I have researched the A123 route extensively. Here is what you need for an A123 power system:

Motor: Tango 45-08 or TonicX A30A or Orbit 30-12 (around 800Kv)
ESC: Jazz 55-10-32 or Phoenix HV 85 (the HV 85 is $100 cheaper, but the governor is not as good)
Pinon: 16T with 153T mod 0.7 maingear (~2000 rpm, perfect for sport flying)
Battery: 10S A123 from tanicpacks or modelelectronicscorp (Tanic has balance leads the others do not, but are much cheaper)
Battery orientation: "shotgun" style (like two barrels) 6 on the bottom, 4 on top.

The above setup with 550mm blades will yield around 6 solid minutes of sport flying.

With the right charger and power source (Hyperion Duo & PS36KX) you can recharge in about 15 minutes, so with 2 packs you can fly almost continuously...

This is based on many hours of reading and around a dozen or so set-ups I have read or PM'd about...

I really want this set-up, but the repair costs of the Logo 500 are high. I am a beginner, and so i will get this after I feel my skills are such that I will not crash a lot. Because of this I'm looking at the Hurricane 550 with 8S A123. It's repair costs are 1/3 that of the Logo 500. The Logo is an amazing heli and with the V-Bar it's unbeatable...


My Hurricane 550 using 500mm 8sA123 , Z30A 1100, CC85HV swinging 2100 rpm, AUW of ~2450g yields a safe 5 minutes mild aerobatics. If I up that to 2600 insane-rpm its 3 minutes max. I have not tried 10sA123, because I still like using my 6s Lipos and don't want to change pinion gear per battery type. 8sA123 is only 100 grams heavier than my 6s 3300 pack. I think the Logo 500 is light enough for 10sA123 with 550mm blades and 8s for 500mm

[Panacoptero]

Hi Ping. Would you please advice a LOGO 14 A123 configuration for sport to mild 3D flying:

Logo 14
tango 45-06 640KV
MB 550mm

Also what would you need to assemble them and where to buy.

thanks

[ping]

10S a123 would be about right with a 15 tooth pinion (16 if you run a gov.) The problem is getting the packs onto the frame you need about 53mm to fit a shotgun style pack and about 70mm to fit a flat pack.

To assemble your own packs you will need a 80-100 watt soldering iron, a hammerhead soldering iron tip, some battery bars, balance taps, and wire/connectors.

For the soldering iron Weller makes an 80 and a 100 watt soldering iron, you can purchase this at several stores online.

The "hammerhead" tip and battery bars can be purchased here:
http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/?sid=1156936&pgid=bldg
I use Hyperion A123 battery bars and balance taps, you can purchase these anywhere you buy Hyperion gear.

The cells can be purchased now from Hyperion and Horizon hobbies however they are 20 bucks a cell. A much cheaper source is from Dewalt DC9630 battery packs you can find information on this here:
http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/packs.htm
Most of us get these packs from Ebay.

You can buy pre-made packs for a premium price from a few places on the web.

[Voyager]

For pre made packs, you can go to MEC. They make them in tubes so you can experiment with different cell counts.
http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/view_products.php?tid=1&stid=2

I think 12s would be a better choice.

Check out my 600 with a123 packs:
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=73412

... Rob

[Panacoptero]

Hello Voyager. Did you make those packs yourself? It seems you use 2 MEC assembly packs. Can you build a 12s pack with those? Or you just bought 2 6s1p packs and put it together? The A123 are 3.3V nominal. I have an orbit charger. Will it charge them properly?? I have found that at Esprit model price for A123 cells is $16.50.
How much did you pay for one pack completely assembled?

Thanks for your comments

[Voyager]

Hi Panacoptero,

I used 2 6s MEC packs and stuck them together with a tiny bit of carper (double sided) tape.
Each pack was $106 so a 12 pack ends up being about 220 with shipping.

I just test flew my scale setup with 2x 7s in MEC tubes and I'm going to try 2x 8s tomorrow. HAving the tubes makes it really easy to change cell counts.
They sell a 'dummy' cell to allow for odd numbered cells. That's how I got 7s packs. 8s with 1 dummy cell.

The packs are very solid and it's nice to be able to take cells from one pack format to another.

... Rob

[Voyager]

Hi Panacoptero,

Forgot to mension charging.

I have the orbit and it charges a123 packs. You may need an updated ROM if your charger is older but that should be just a few $$$.

The cell voltage is 3.6 so if you have a 12s pack, you can charge it as a 10s Lipo without any special charger.
10s lipo is 10x 4.2 = 42v
12s 123 is 12x 3.6 = 43.2v (close enough to 42v)

I somtines charge my 12s a123 packs as 10s Lipo and I don't find any decrease in flight time.

... Rob

[Panacoptero]

Dear Rob. Many thanks for your valuable information.

[terrybeb]

A quick question, I'm putting together a A123 12s setup using a hv85 and I'm not sure what BEC to buy. I'm running a Futaba GY611 with S9256 Tail servo's and JR 8717 servos on cyclic. This is going on a TREX 600 but I'm researching the Logo's and the E Raptors as well for a friend.

[AusAnt]

http://www.rcflightstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=1839

[terrybeb]

Thanks AusAnt....I would need a separate 7.4V battery for that setup instead of powering using the 12S A123 setup I'm thinking. Given the fact I can pick one up down the street at Scott's Dad's hobby shop, that's definitely worth looking into. Albeit a more pricey alternative.