Going Flybarless w/o Gyro assist

[BBRFST]

hi,
I am wanting to use a 450 sized heli an RC Tech Diablo chassis and a scale fuselage with a 3 bladed rotor head design. I do not want to use V-Stabi or Skookum electronic assist. My question is, (1) can it be done (2) is it very difficult to fly (3) is there more stability in a 4 or 5 bladed head design? Any and all comments welcome.

Thanks
Sean

[Rodan]

I have flown TRex 450s with both three and four bladed heads, with and without stabilization. The end result of all the experimentation is a 450 with the Align EC135 fuselage (pictured below). I went through many trials and tribulations with this thing, and here's what works:

Tip weighting the blades. That's it... Nothing else did as much for the stability and flyability of the heli. Here's a thread on the subject: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=836351&highlight=weight

Also, keep your headspeed down around 2200-2400, you can go a little less depending on weight, but watch the tail authority, it decays quickly when you drop headspeed.

More good info on T450 scale heads here: http://runryder.com/helicopter/t410367p1/

FWIW, the three blader flew better than the four blader when I was first starting out. With tip weighted blades, I'll be the three blader will be very nice!

[ChasHeliCop]

Here ya go

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZtlD4ebyPbw

ZtlD4ebyPbw

[BBRFST]

I have flown TRex 450s with both three and four bladed heads, with and without stabilization. The end result of all the experimentation is a 450 with the Align EC135 fuselage (pictured below). I went through many trials and tribulations with this thing, and here's what works:

Tip weighting the blades. That's it... Nothing else did as much for the stability and flyability of the heli. Here's a thread on the subject: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=836351&highlight=weight

Also, keep your headspeed down around 2200-2400, you can go a little less depending on weight, but watch the tail authority, it decays quickly when you drop headspeed.

More good info on T450 scale heads here: http://runryder.com/helicopter/t410367p1/

FWIW, the three blader flew better than the four blader when I was first starting out. With tip weighted blades, I'll be the three blader will be very nice!

Thanks for the great info.
Sean

[BBRFST]

Here ya go

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZtlD4ebyPbw

ZtlD4ebyPbw

Great video, how is forward flight. Looks like your using regular blades not weighted ones. I was told that regular blades would make it pitch up going into forward flight. Have you had this problem??

[ChasHeliCop]

Great video, how is forward flight. Looks like your using regular blades not weighted ones. I was told that regular blades would make it pitch up going into forward flight. Have you had this problem??

I find it's a little different to fly, It's almost like you have to fly the tail, using more rudder to make turns. FF is ok, I haven't had any problems yet, but I haven't built and installed the fuselage yet either. Basically, I am trying to learn to fly this new head before I put the Fuse on it. That will change all the flight characteristics. And yes, I read too you should use weighted blades.

[BBRFST]

Just got my scale fuselage back from the painter, it looks great. Now I need to get to work you know decals, set up, all that goes with it. Thought you guys wold like to see it thus far. I am using the RCtek Diablo for the chassis, I flipped the tail rotor around to add realism. I plan to use a rod in tube set up to control the tail and will tape the tube to the boom to limit flexing. For a tail servo I will use a hitec micro servo and the Chinese tail
mod to reduce the load on the servo. This should work fine with the small servo, a ds3400 would be a tighter fit. I will keep U posted.


http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51752&d=1213678021
http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51750&d=1213678021
http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51751&d=1213678021

[ChasHeliCop]

Just got my scale fuselage back from the painter, it looks great. Now I need to get to work you know decals, set up, all that goes with it. Thought you guys wold like to see it thus far. I am using the RCtek Diablo for the chassis, I flipped the tail rotor around to add realism. I plan to use a rod in tube set up to control the tail and will tape the tube to the boom to limit flexing. For a tail servo I will use a hitec micro servo and the Chinese tail
mod to reduce the load on the servo. This should work fine with the small servo, a ds3400 would be a tighter fit. I will keep U posted.


http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51752&d=1213678021
http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51750&d=1213678021
http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51751&d=1213678021

Man, that fuse looks awesome. I like the color, can't wait to see the decals. Now you are making me wonder if I should paaint mine before I install it.

[BBRFST]

Man, that fuse looks awesome. I like the color, can't wait to see the decals. Now you are making me wonder if I should paaint mine before I install it.

Well there's not a whole lot of large decals just the badge that goes over the white stripe. most of the decals are small warning or informational type, I need to go down to the hanger and get detailed photo's to see what else I need. Here' pic of the actual choper it's a notar.

[ChasHeliCop]

Cool, don't forget to put the mirror on the skid LOL

[JasonJ]

BBRFST, that looks pretty good. I have gone back and forth on putting a 500 fuse on my Skyshark. In fact, that was one reason I chose the Skyshark over the Diablo, was the grey parts verses the red parts. I also liked that the flybar is overslung on our RCT-450's, which places the rotor closer to the fuse, makes it look more scale. What motor/esc are you running on your Diablo? I will be curious to find out how it flies with the fuse on. I am sure it flies similar to how a T-rex 450 flies with this fuse on. The main reason I am on the fence whether to go scale with my RCT is as I am starting to dabble in aerobatics I am wanting to keep the RCT as-is, or get a performance helicopter and religate the RCT to scale mechs.

[BBRFST]

BBRFST, that looks pretty good. I have gone back and forth on putting a 500 fuse on my Skyshark. In fact, that was one reason I chose the Skyshark over the Diablo, was the grey parts verses the red parts. I also liked that the flybar is overslung on our RCT-450's, which places the rotor closer to the fuse, makes it look more scale. What motor/esc are you running on your Diablo? I will be curious to find out how it flies with the fuse on. I am sure it flies similar to how a T-rex 450 flies with this fuse on. The main reason I am on the fence whether to go scale with my RCT is as I am starting to dabble in aerobatics I am wanting to keep the RCT as-is, or get a performance helicopter and religate the RCT to scale mechs.
Sup Dude,
Well I scored a couple of month ago when I got my hands on some spare heli's. I had a T-Rex 450SE V2 that I've had about a year. I thought about getting 500 fuse for it but didn't want to commit to flying scale, you know slow no tricks etc. But I now have a Dragonus Pro flying, a Dragonus Elite w/ no electronics, and that Diablo. The reason I used the Diablo for the 500 fuse was that it's so close to the T-Rex in almost every way. And would drop right into the 500 also most of the parts are interchangeable with the 450SE. I don't like the red parts either, my plan is to get it together and see how it flies. You know work out any bugs and get the setup right. Then I wanted to go to a 3 blade or 5 blade head. Most likely I'll go with the 3 blade first to see if it's way different from a flybar setup. I know that I love the way my Rex flies, like it's on a rail. The Dragon is fast but flies like a larger bird, I have them setup as close to the same as i can get. I wouldn't want to put either one in a 500 fuse. As for electronics I will use the Hitec HS-65MG for the cyclic and a micro sized digital Hitec HSG-5084MG for the tail. Speed controller, not sure yet, motor, Align XL most likely. I will keep posting as the build goes on, it may be awhile though funds are slow going these last few month.

Sean

[BBRFST]

Well I got the RCT-450 together and flew it for the first time. I swapped the tail rotor to the right side and used a small JR ds285 servo to drive it, the tail seemed to work well but the flight. All I have to say is it is a handful :Slap I mean it's nothing like my T-Rex 450v2 or the Dragonus. After 3 flights I was sorta getting use to it but I'm afraid that if I use it in the scale fuselage my chances for a crash will increase. I think I'll get a T-Rex head for it and try that, the head setup on the Diablo is weird the interaction is hard to get use to. It may work well for the experienced pilot doing 3D but for my scale needs it's over my head. I'll keep you all posted as always.

[lrogers]

I recently had my first flight with a 5 blade head and was very surprised with the stability. Granted, I was flying a much larger helicopter, but I was surprised. I used no gyro assist on the head, but did have to add some aileron-to-elevator and elevator to aileron mixing to dial out all the interaction. I was also using HEAVY blades made by OF. The blades were perfectly match weight wise and are weighted in the tips. Before getting the head, everyone gave the same advise about tip weight and appearently, they were correct!

I have done mostly hovers and some limited slow forward flight trying to get everything dialed in. I want everything as perfect as possible BEFORE the mechanics go into the scale Sea King fuselage.

While I was researching multi-blade flight, everyone I asked said it wasn't really harder to fly, just different. I was never able to get "different" described and now that I have a few flights under my belt, I can't describe it either, except for one part; the spool up! Until the head gets to a "magic speed" it sort of cork screws if cyclic input is given. Really weird, but once that special speed is reached, it acts normal. Guess it has to do with gyroscopic progression.

[majuro15]

Nice looking Hughes!!! I have the four bladed head with no stabilization and once you get it all fine tuned, it's not too bad. I aggree with the rudder statement though, it takes a lot more coordination for coordinated turns!

[Super-Hornet]

I flew 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 bladed TRex450 size before. All are home made rotor head.

This is what I feel:
Flying without gyro and/or weighted tip blades for 2 bladed is practically impossible for TRex450 size.
Flying with 3 blades, it is better go with either/or both weighted tip and gyro.
Flying with 4 blades, It is possible to fly with normal blades...but stability not that good. it is better go with either/or both weighted tip and gyro. I feel that 4 bladed tend to be more stable than 3 in hover.
Flying with 5 blades (which I recently use HAC type. see note) is possible to fly without gyro. U want more stable, use weighted tip or heavy blades.
Flying with 6 is even more stable in hover.

Now... the more blades u have, the more stable in hover it goes BUT it tend to have a characteristic as if it has very high inertial. In other word, when flying forward, when u want to turn left/right using cyclic, it tend to ignore your aileron input for a short period of time before it started to turn.
For TRex450 size, the more blades u have, the more sensitive it is to wind for collective. When wind blows, u will experiencing sudden up/down movement in collective. This is most likely due to more surface area to catch the wind.

Oh... u can use either weighted tip blades or heavy blades.

Note: I currently flying HAC 5 bladed head (I posted in RCGroups/RunRyder) for my MD500E. I try to post the picture here tonite.


SH

[majuro15]

I'm using a heavy fiberglass blade from Ebay, belive it or not. They have the same shape as the Align woodies and balanced out pretty well. I do agree that with the four blade head it is sensitve to wind but it is very possible to fly it without a gyro stabilzer. Just takes some practice and getting used to.