Mini Titan - 1st flip. need more punch

[helikev2]

After one week of practicing quarter flips (stops when it reaches nose down) yesterday i finally got the guts to go fulll forward flip.

My first flip was too fast. The heli was turning too fast and the time which the heli was inverted was too short to allow the heli to arrest the descent. It lost altitude and fell 30 feet to about few feet above the ground. but nevertheless a flip...with shivers...:WOW then i remembered i read somewhere that most beginner would perform 3D too fast and it should be done in a nice pace.

So I put that advice into my second flip i applied elevator at a slower rate. The flip turned out better. the Mini Titan didn't fall as much.

My third flip, while the Mini titan is inverted i stopped for a short second applying the elevator and gave it more negative pitch. The MT gain about 2 feet altitude while inverted and then I put in more elevator to reach upright position. WOW!!!!! Just like those I do in RFG3 !!!!! :banana:banana

Happy I was and came out laughing for the fact I did my first flip without crash... (touch wood...)

Then the question arise....... How to I give the Mini Titan More Punch??

I am using 25c 2250 mah Loong Max battery, Tower Pro micro Servo, +11/-11 degree pitch, Fun Key Carbon Blades, my SE has 3700kv ripper stock motor, ace ESC, idle up throttle 100,95,90,95,100, 13T pinion.

After much thought, I reckon a few thing I could do with the stock motor & ESC.

1. use a better 25c battery (eg. Flight power?)
2. Use a faster cyclic/collective servos (eg. ACE servo, hitec, Futaba?) But does this helps??
3. Replace the metal blade grip with the plastic one to reduce the blade rotation mass. thus more punch ??
4. Change the ESC motor timing from standard to Hard timing. But WOuld this fry my other 20C Lipo?
5. increase the +11/-11 deg pitch to +12/-12 deg to give faster throttle response (is this OK?)
6. Use 14T instead of the stock 13T pinion? Would it bog down the motor at high pitch?


Which change should i Go first?? any input would be much appreciated... Thanks.

And last but not least.... WOOOOOW!!!!:Bang

[paintballkidz]

Your problem is right there ...
Your servos need to go, get Hs65's.. Get your self a good qaulity lipo (flightpower, thunderpower, airthunders ETC.)

[helikev2]

hi paintballzkid

HS65 compared to HS56 has more torque but less speed. which is better for more punch?

[Aox]

There are a few things you can do.

Technique: Learn to fly through the flip, instead of just throwing it over. You need less power than you may think.

Servos: I would trust the 65s much more than the 56's, when throwing around a 450. But they may be fine. I'd be more concerned about the servos handling the load, then the speed difference. But if they're working now, they may be fine.

Motor Upgrade: The Scorpion -8 motor is a beast compared to the Ripper, I run that in my MT on 13t. Make sure your batteries can keep up. You need good packs.

Programming: Run 100 flat on your pitch curve. Get your midpoint up higher to give you more initial punch.

For your first flip, give it a little collective pop, to initiate some upward inertia before flipping it over.

I fly a few different birds, but my Mini Titan is my stupid power 450 3d bird. I run the scorpion -8 motor, with 65HB's, and the Kasama head. CC45 ESC. All else is stock. Love that heli.

The other 450 I fly is a TREX450 se v2, and it's a great bird, but the 430XL stock motor is nothing compared to the massive power of the Scorpion in my MT. But if it was me, I'd try the 100 flat pitch curve first, if you're looking for the type of "power" I think you are. It's cheap, and if you don't like it, you can go back :D

G'luck!

-Aox

[paintballkidz]

You can always go with the -6 if you want your heli to be a bullet :) but then you will need a metal head.

[helikev2]

thanks AOX & Paintballkidz

[RMG2]

This is exactly the thread I have been looking for! Like you helikeV2 I am at that point (two months with first CP) where I am ready to try my first mild 3D and a flip will be my first attempt:shock: I am running a similar setup, and exactly the same throttle curve as you so reading your accounts of your first flip will be helpful for me, thanks a bunch!

Another thing you might think about is your expo. settings. I like my cyclic to be very very fast so I run my expo. settings to speed-up my servo response around center stick. Many like to run expo. the other direction and slow the response around center stick. Since I have not done a flip yet (except on sim), I can't say for sure but it seems logical to me that having quick cyclic/sticks should help initiate the maneuver quicker???

Perhaps someone who has actual 3D experience can add to my thoughts about expo. pros or cons for helikeV2's question???

[helikev2]

Great to know you're trying it out as well.

you HAVE to take a look at finless bob's vid on basic loop, roll & flip. The thing you should look for is how fast your flip rate should be. But most importantly the setting should be comfortable for the rythm of your thumbs. And I believe every flyer differs slightly.

I do run 20 expo for my cyclics. but you know.. your swashplate setting is also VERY important. and also the thing is swashplaete setting is also influenced by your cyclic/collective servo arm length. ie longer arm used, lower swashplate setting to get the same tilt (though speed is different. longer arm is faster speed but less torque).

That's why I have been practicing quarter flips (till nose down) coz i was experimenting with different setting and stuck with the one i felt comfortable.

flip rate.... if it's too fast, you'll find it harder to match your collective fast enough to the orientation of the heli (ie 0 collective at nose up and nose down positions).

And like what AOX said, don't overpower your flip. the heli will fly off. it can be dangerous.... stand far enough..

yesterday, I changed my pitch range from -11/11 to -12/+12 and ended up overpowering the flip. and one of the flips turned out to be more like a rainbow when the heli is on the way back to upright.

but again like what finless says in the vid, it's all about collective management, ie mathcing your collective to the orientation of you heli. So for a beginner like me, when the pitch range is too high, the collective becomes VERY sensitive, and it make it harder to manage it.

I am definitely back to +11/-11 & maybe +10/-10.

[paintballkidz]

you can also get 3d green paddles to get a quicker cyclic response.

[helikev2]

Got my TT green paddles wrecked in a crash, and currently using align 3K paddles. it fits and works.

I found a page by Scott MacMurray, Pensacola, FL who jot down note in a 3D seminar by JK & Todd Bennet. which after reading i realised it's more of my power management rather than set up and equipment causing the problem. But anyways, I got myself HS65. Thanks scott..

Here's the link, and enjoy....

http://www.laux.org/laux/other/ircha2002.htm

[helikev2]

Yesterday I got a few proper stationary flips. I have done a few change in the setting, and those under are the one was used :-

1. lower the pitch range from +11/-11 to +10/10
2. Lower the throttle curve from 100,95,90,95,100 to 96,93,90,93,96
3. reduce my swashplate elevator setting, and less expo. previous setting was too fast
4. technique: give it an initial bump (as per AOX), and give it more negative pitch when inverted.

1 & 2 is to tame down the power of the minititan so that the throttle is less sensitive especially when transition from positive to negative pitch. easier on collective management.

3 is to lessen the elevator sensativity. you dont really need a lightning flip rate to do a stationary flip.

4 is essential to give it a bump, if not it tends to turn out to be a "tumbling flip".

[helikev2]

after a while, my mind starts to imagine there's a stick on top of the heli, and my radio throttle sticks just moves in correspondent to the imaginary stick. you can see in my diargram. the diagram just indicates the timing of your radio throttle stick, but how much throttle to apply is dependent on your heli's set up.

This mental visualisation does help me in managing the collective. I hope it does for you.