12S in Europe

[andys]

Does anyone now about whether we can run 12S in Europe? I know we cant have a single cell pack of 12S, but not sure about 2 x 6s in series

I would love to try the Ion on 12s with the NEU 1521's which arrived this week

Andy

[PDC]

Why can´t we have a single cell pack of 12S? Who says we can´t have that?

[BigRagu]

Andy,
The only thing I understand limiting Electrics is the 42 Volt Maximum. This is the LIMIT before you need to become a licienced "Electrician" to handle.
I had asked this myself a few years ago.

My $0.02,
BigRagu
:D :D :D

[Laurens]

Who will notice you fly 12s? I think the UK government has better things to do.

[PDC]

In Denmark we talked about where the limit is as well, but as far as I remember I don´t think we came to any conclusion.

You can buy EU approved chargers there can charge to more than 42V, you can have 220V in your kids room, etc. Guess the sky is the limit as long as you are a private person and it is something you do as your hobby at own risk. Guess the regulations counts for homemade installations in your house etc.

In the Danish schools the limit for DC is 60V at the tables in the physics room, and the "low voltage regulations" first starts at 75V in Denmark, guess that could be the case for many other European countries as well.

In my heli´s the limit will be the esc. :-).

[BigRagu]

The LIMIT I was refering to has to do with what can be sold to the public.
As a private citizen I agree, drag out an extension cord and let's tap the old 220V . . .YaHooo! Large "Corded" Hirobo Lama anyone???

BigRagu
:D :D :D

[PDC]

The LIMIT I was refering to has to do with what can be sold to the public.

BigRagu
:D :D :D

Thanks BigRagu!

Thats new to me, so that means we never will See more than 10S batteries in the RC shops, that you have to solder your own 12S batteries, or make sure you purchase a heli where you can fit 2 x 6S, 7S or maybe 2 x 10S one day :glasses: .

Just for my interest, do you know where I can find the regulations saying that you are not allowed to sell more than 42V batteries?


Paul

[iachia]

Have a look at www.flightpower.co.uk
they have a single 12s1p battery pack... and that's a UK shop...
I don't think there's a UE specific regulation about these problem. I guess it's up to the single Countries to decide what to do. Here in Italy we don't have such a restriction and beside that who will ever come next to you and check how many lipos you have in series?

[andys]

Hi Guys
after a bit of research and asking questions the definative answer is 60V, it was 42 up until recently, this covers all of Europe.

thanks for the earlier replys

Andy

[PDC]

Hi Guys
after a bit of research and asking questions the definative answer is 60V, it was 42 up until recently, this covers all of Europe.

thanks for the earlier replys

Andy

Thanks for the research, and good news Andy, then we can have 240V in our helis with only 4 batteries :glasses2:

[ChrisS]

"after a bit of research and asking questions the definative answer is 60V, it was 42 up until recently, this covers all of Europe."

That may be what the governmental regulations mandate, but the FAI is still locked into 42V...

Chris

[PDC]

"after a bit of research and asking questions the definative answer is 60V, it was 42 up until recently, this covers all of Europe."

That may be what the governmental regulations mandate, but the FAI is still locked into 42V...

Chris

Hi Chris!

What will the consequence of that be to us pilots?...maybe that we can fly with whatever we want to home at our local flying club, but max. 42V at certain competitions?

Thanks!

Paul

[MinAirChris]

Hi Paul

The biggest problem that I can see with this limitation is that it kind of keeps the manufacturers of speed controls and such from pushing ahead to higher voltages. Most of the manufacturers of these things are in the European community.

Additionally, this limitation keeps high power more inefficient than it could be in certain circumstances. There has been a pretty good thread going over on Ezone regarding this.

That said, as you know, some American manufacturers are pushing ahead anyway, but it's probably gonna be a while before things get to where they should be.

In a nutshell, it is just not a good thing to pull 100 amps in order to make 3000 watts like we do now. It would be much better to get the voltage up to a higher level so that we can circumvent a lot of the losses and expense.

Chris

[BigRagu]

I knew the was some sort of a bloody limit . . .:arggg:

BigRagu
:D :D :D

[PDC]

Hi Paul

The biggest problem that I can see with this limitation is that it kind of keeps the manufacturers of speed controls and such from pushing ahead to higher voltages. Most of the manufacturers of these things are in the European community.

Additionally, this limitation keeps high power more inefficient than it could be in certain circumstances. There has been a pretty good thread going over on Ezone regarding this.

That said, as you know, some American manufacturers are pushing ahead anyway, but it's probably gonna be a while before things get to where they should be.

In a nutshell, it is just not a good thing to pull 100 amps in order to make 3000 watts like we do now. It would be much better to get the voltage up to a higher level so that we can circumvent a lot of the losses and expense.

Chris

Houston! we have a problem.....need more power.....request permission to connect more cells...

Yes! agree that the only logic way to go for more power is to raise the voltage before the Amps. Not only for the benefit of the motor, but for the whole powerline.
Some few percent better efficiency may not sound of much, but it is. The difference between 90% efficiency and 92% is not 2%, but 20% less heat to remove.

I will support all the companies that follows the hi-voltage route. Often the system are behind the real world, and often the real world have to show the system how it should be, so who calls Mr. FAI and ask for more voltage?

But where will this FAI limit be a limitation? not in my heli for sure, so where? at 3D masters? for the insurance? in the clubs? or where? who has to follow this 42V rule?

Do you have a direct link to the Ezone thread? will look for it my self aswell and see if I can find it.

Thanks!

Paul

[PDC]

Maybe this is the one?

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437544

[PDC]

Found the FAI rule. Look under "RC electric powered competitions"

http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4.asp

-----------------------------------

c) POWER SOURCE: The power source for the electric motor shall consist of 30 or fewer
rechargeable cells. Primary, that is, non-rechargeable cells are prohibited. The no-load
voltage of the power pack must not exceed 42 volts. No battery change is allowed during the
flight. In case the voltage is measured, this shall be done at the moment the preparation time
for the pilot starts. After the measurement has been taken, the pilot is allowed 5 minutes
preparation time as per 5.5.5.12

-----------------------------------------

As I understand it, this limitation has only something to do with FAI competitions. So if you don´t fly FAI competitions this 42V rule is no limit.
This 42V limit is 100% our own limit, not a government limit, and only applies for FAI competitions yet I guess.

So guess all us 3D pilots can use as much as the esc. allows, which is 60V or 14S for a European esc. Don't know if the same 60V applies for USA.

At 3D masters you can use a 100HP 100% nitro motor, a 100HP jet motor, or a 100HP 100.000 Volt electric motor if you wish, I guess.

Am I correct or wrong Chris?

Thanks!

Paul

[PDC]

Hi!

Just got confirmation on that there will be no voltage limits for 3D masters. Thanks a lot to the 3D masters team.

--------------------------------------
Q

I am flying electric heli´s, and the trend right now is to use higher and higher voltage. Just want to have confirmed that there are no voltage limits on electric helicopters at the 3D masters competition.
<<

A

There are no limits, and unless there is a nationwide ban imposed by our flying association, the BMFA, then 3D Masters will not be applying a ban of it's own. See you in July Best regards Jeff

----------------------------------------------

- Paul

[Laurens]

FAI made that rule so that electric can't have an unfair advantage above fuel powered heli's. Too bad their technology doesn't develop quick enough :mrgreen:

[PDC]

Read about this General FAI limit of 72V....so now we have two FAI limits, one specific of 42V, another general limit of 72V.

The last 72V might be the safety related limit, and the 42V limit a competition related limit, just my guess.

- Paul

-----------------------------------------

SECTION 4C – MODEL AIRCRAFT
PART ONE - GENERAL REGULATIONS FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT
1.1. GENERAL DEFINITION OF MODEL AIRCRAFT
A model aircraft is an aircraft of limited dimensions, with or without a propulsion device, not able to carry a
human being and to be used for competition, sport or recreational purposes rather than unmanned
aeronautical vehicles (UAV) developed for commercial or governmental, scientific, research or military
purposes.
1.2. GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF MODEL AIRCRAFT
Unless otherwise stated, model aircraft shall meet the following general specifications:
Maximum flying weight with fuel 25 kg
Maximum surface area 500 dm2
Maximum loading 250 g/dm2
Maximum swept volume of piston motor(s) 250 cm3
Electric Motors power source max. no load voltage 72 volts
Noise limits shall be applied to powered model aircraft categories, with 96 dB(A) at 3 metres for any
category which does not have approval for any other noise rule. Specific noise measuring procedures are
to be developed by each subcommittee for its category.
Noise limits do not apply to model aircraft with electric motors.