BEGINNER - Dragonfly 22D or ZOOM or T-rex?

[jodaboda]

I am a beginner and want to start off pretty simple. I'm assuming I'll break stuff quickly, so resiliance and ease of learning are my chief expectations (hopes) for a new micro.

Some guy at an online store recommended the 22D. However, I see a lot of negative posts about Walkera. Does anyone have this model? How is it for learning on?

Would a zoom, t-rex, Hummingbird or (other) be better for learning? I don't want to spend too much money initially, but understand that the heli with the cheapest replacement parts and the one with the parts that don't break as easily/often are the cheapest in the long run.

Thanks for any input.

By the way, I already have a sim. You don't need to tell me.

[WayneBrown]

raptor or century .30 nitro is your best bet.

[mplourde]

If you start in micro electric heli, I suggest to you the Hummingbird V.3 Micro heli kit. It's very a great heli and comes with what you need to start : FMS simulator, plug betweem computer and radio control, tripod for soft landing battery etc etc..... for only 189,95$. Look this link :

http://www.heli-world.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CN1020BRFSP&Category_Code=

If you start in nitro helico, I suggest to go to .50 size now. Don't buy a .30 size. Is not enough performance and is the closest price than .50 copper. You can think to .50 Raptor size or .50 Falcon or Hawk pro from Century. Good choice and not expensive to repare.

Good luck!!! :wink:

[jodaboda]

Thanks very much for your responses! A few points...

I already know I want to start with electric.
A bit bigger than "micro" is okay too, if you have a recommendation.
I would prefer to buy at least 85% finished.

Is the Hummingbird v.3 better/worse/same as the 3d pro whatever? Has no one tried the 22d?

Here are my main worries as an ignorant newbie:

1. Am I going to crash and break the whole damn thing?
2. When I do, will it cost 300 bucks in parts to fix the $200 heli?
3. If I don't get a brushless motor and heatsink, will my motor overheat or stop working after 3 flights?
4. If I buy one of the helis designed for aerobatics/3D, will I be able to learn on it and grow into its capabilities?
5. Can I lift a small load, like a 150g camera? Will doing that wear out every single component on the heli?

Oh, and what's the best book or magazine out there?

[WayneBrown]

The fixed pitch choppers are a waste of time. Period.
If you are serious, then go nitro.
If you are looking for a toy, go to toys R us..

To answer your questions;
1. It's possible to total a machine at any time.
2. It depends on the crash, but again, it's possible.
3. If it's a brushed setup, it's a TOY!
4. Depends on size, if you are talking micro e-heli.. You'll most likely get discouraged before you get there.
5. micro e-heli won't lift squat, they are already too close to the max weight.

If you think you can do this on a budget, prepare to be disappointed. This is not a cheap hobby. Nickle and dime spending up front will bust the bank later on.
Stay away from E Bay, and used choppers unless you can see them Flown BEFORE you buy, and in person, not a video. (unless from a reputable person you trust.)
If your heart is set on an e-heli, prepare for the additional learning curve of newer battery technology as well, this will also be expensive. Lipos need special chargers and handling so you don't fry your car/house/shop or at best end up with smoke damage.
You are at the BEST source for no BU!!Sh!t advice there is.. whether you choose to listen is up to you.

The best advice you will ever get;
Find someone to learn from/with.

[mplourde]

Like Lamebird said, It's true to say his an expensive hobby!!! BUT, you have a start point on each thing. If you want have fun in this hobby AND respect your budget, start with an electric fixed pitch. It's easier to learn how pilot this kind of thing, and not too much expensive to start and check if you like them and do some reparation if is it the case. With a fix pitch, this is built to learn indoor and fly on calm day outoor too. Fix pitch is not for doing some areobatic flight, this is just for doing some fly normally. Humming 3D Pro is for areobatic flying. It's true is a little bit more pleasant to fly 3D pro than de fix pitch, but is very harder to learn too. You risk to be more discouraged faster if you learn on a nervous helico at begining than fix pitch. I talk what I know. 3D Pro is more expensive too.

So, this hobby work with you kind of budget you want to spend on it. My big recommandation is start with a fix pitch helico and you will enjoy this hobby for long time. For my part, i have yet my fix pitch version and i fly them one time to time.

Have fun!!!

[jodaboda]

thanks very much LameBird and mplourde for your advice.

I am still confused about the sizes, and haven't yet found a good guide on the internet, but I think I want something in the 370-400 range. If it's not to hard to install a new motor, I'm sure I'll upgrade to a brushless before too long.

You two seem to disagree on fixed pitch. I'm inclined to buy a cheap (sub-$150) ANYTHING to learn on, and then if my interest grows put some good money on a decent CP.

Anyway, I still don't know what brand to get (hell, I don't even understand the models with their zip/zap/zoom/zebra multiple names). I'm looking at Century, Trex, Blade, Esky...

And Wayne - I will head out to the fields and look for friends and mentors once I get something to play with. I agree with you completely; having a mentor is the best way to learn just about anything.

[jodaboda]

thanks very much LameBird and mplourde for your advice.

I am still confused about the sizes, and haven't yet found a good guide on the internet, but I think I want something in the 370-400 range. If it's not to hard to install a new motor, I'm sure I'll upgrade to a brushless before too long.

You two seem to disagree on fixed pitch. I'm inclined to buy a cheap (sub-$150) ANYTHING to learn on, and then if my interest grows put some good money on a decent CP.

Anyway, I still don't know what brand to get (hell, I don't even understand the models with their zip/zap/zoom/zebra multiple names). I'm looking at Century, Trex, Blade, Esky...

And Wayne - I will head out to the fields and look for friends and mentors once I get something to play with. I agree with you completely; having a mentor is the best way to learn just about anything.

[lakespinner2]

It is a tough choice although the mentor and a simulator are probably your two best friends. My glow and gas helis are definitely the smoothest and easiest to fly; they're also larger and easier to see at at distance. The only problem is the pucker factor, initial expense and the repair expense is highest for the larger birds.

I also have an Esky/E-Flite Blade on the other end of the scale and it's by far the hardest thing I have to fly due to the lack of a heading hold tail (gyro) and general lack of power. Oddly, it's the cheapest heli I own but the repair cost is usually higher than the repair cost for my t-rex's.

"IF" you're sure u're going into the electrics, I'd have to say the t-rex (with the power throttled well down, flybar weights, etc.) might be the easiest to fly electric choice; IF it fits the budget. The initial cost might be a little steep because of all the electronics but he repair costs are really good. Pucker factor is low and I find the learning curve is pretty fast since I'm not afraid to try new things initially with the t-rex that I'd never try with my glow heli.

In case you can't tell, I really like the t-rex's. Often that's all I take to the field. No muss, no fuss, can fit three in the passenger seat. :wink:

Oh, I have hauled around a small modified CVS video camera on it a couple of times and it had no problem carrying it. It even flips and rolls wth the camera attached.

Good luck with whatever u choose and even if you find one 85% built, my experience has been that you'll get VERY familiar with every nut and bolt on it eventually. :mrgreen:

[WayneBrown]

My point again, For the micro e-heli's to fly with enough endurance requires Lithium polymer technology, which in and of itself has a learning curve to learn.
Point implied but not stated earlier, You will have a bigger/better market for a nitro machine if you decide this isn't for you, meaning you have at least a half-assed chance of recouping some of your cash in the event that this isn't for you.
Learning to fly on a blade, h-bird, walkera, etc. Is a waste of time and money. period.
Read on:..

The people who *thought* they learned on them had or are STILL relearning the required technique to fly safely and properly, and to learn orientation 'by the numbers' is not something you can do with a micro heli Until, and I stress this, UNTIL you already know the basics of flight, as learned on a more stable machine. (ie: nitro).
I am not saying micro helis have no place, but they are better suited to be used to try new orientations and flight conditions AFTER you've learned the basics.
Downsides to micro e-helis;
Cost: (pros and cons) see durability
Durability: (small bearings and plastic parts wear quicker, espescially at higher RPM)
Size: E choppers are on the whole, more 'lively', 'squirrely', 'quick', and will already be doing an unintended manuever well before you can literally SEE it, it's an aspect thing.
Weight: As stated earlier, they are (generally) at their maximum weight, or near to it. 1/10 oz. in the wrong direction can and will cause oscillations, making the chopper even harder to control.
The T-Rex is a little different, as it can carry a small load, but you need Lipo batteries, a lightweight receiver, micro servos, etc. all adding to the cost.
Let's not forget that you also need to know already how to build, setup the chopper, and program your radio..

Here's you a list for a 'budget' nitro chopper that will get you going, and will have a 'decent' resale value;

Audacity Models Tiger 50 ARF- $299
OS Max 46 SXH -$100 +/- (sale prices)
Muffler - $40- $120
Futaba 6EX w/3103 servos -$219
Futaba 401 w/ servo -$219 (or less)
Add a few incidentals like Y harnesses and Servo arms, 1 additional servo - $125+/-
Field equipment: starter, fuel, glow ignitor, fuel pump, filters, spare glow plugs, etc..
You will spend around $1300.00 for everything, most of it can be re-used for different aircraft, Some you will upgrade as you learn.

A Raptor or Century chopper will run nearly the same, maybe a bit more. Find who flies what in your area, and you can be assured of spare parts availability, someone who knows your machine, and the setup tricks.
Biggest thing here; It's large enough to see, size adds stability, and parts are cheap, although initially a bit higher than 'all in a box' micro choppers.

T-Rex will average about the same initially, espescially if you have no radio, lipo charger or batteries ($80 each), micro servos, or gyro.

IF you search the online shops, you will find a lot of the required items on sale, I used Tower Hobbies just for reference, Ricks, HeliProz, RHR, and others will be lower on most items.


It's your money, The advice of everyone will be for You to determine where you intend to go with the hobby, and spend ONCE, rather than buy cheap and/or unsuitable gear that you have to upgrade later.
Basically stated; The more you can spend NOW, the less you will have to RE-spend on upgrades in the future. In addition, a better item (radio) will be easier to sell than the ultra cheap. (no-frills box.)

[jodaboda]

haha! "Gravity sucks".

Thanks again for your input, Wayne and lakespinner (whatever that means).

I think I would very much like the Trex, but since there are very few ARF or RTF packages out there, and since the initial cost is rather high, I will go with something smaller.

Basically, if I get a sub $200 micro (maybe one of those stable x-wing things), I can play with it, see if I like the hobby, and use the controller on my computer to learn to fly more advanced (expensive) helis. If I end up not having fun, I'll sell it for 100 on ebay or just keep it around. If I do enjoy flying, I'll buy a more expensive heli (maybe a kit), and keep flying the baby while the big one's batteries are charging. I can only really go wrong if I up and smash the thing in the first five minutes of flight.

I emailed a bunch of beginners who bought micros off ebay, and they have had mixed results. Some said it's quite hard, more of an intermediate-level size, and some say it's great for beginners and they've crashed many times with no damage.

By the way, can anyone point me to a link or just explain what the different movements are (ie pitch, elevator, aelierononenon...) and how the CP controls differ from the FP controls (is the tx/controller any different; does it have extra switches or sticks or something?). Its amazing how hard it is to find basic info like this (especially since most of the sites with RC heli info read like old japanese translated into english by a drunk german).

Thanks again everyone.

[Curtis Burns]

I started out with a fixed pitch electric heli. Man, what a waste of money. After all the time and money I through in that hole I could of had a good used 30/50 size heli. Like said before above: fixed pitch / brushed are toys. If I could get some of the money out of my feda I could buy a full metal head for one of my Raptor 50's. I went through a hand full of main and tail motors. Then I bought two brushless motors, two brushless controls, lipos and a better gyro only to realize I had more in my fixed pitch than I would a 30 or 50 size and it's still a POS fixed pitch toy that flies like crap. You'll find the bigger the bird the better they fly. I suggest buying a good simulator (if you haven't already.) Then, see what the guys at the nearest flying field are flying and buy one of those. You'll probably find some good deals at the flying field anyway. You said you wanted to see if you like the hobby by buying a electric. Spend that money on a good sim and if you find yourself using the sim for hours on end, your going to like the hobby and want to stay in it. And if you ever decide to "get out " you can sell your glow powered. The electric will just end up on a shelf somewhere.

[jodaboda]

Thanks for the advice, Curtis. You are right, of course, about these being toys. I'm having a hell of a time with mine, and have already spent 30 bucks and many hours on mine... and still haven't got it to fly. I will surely be looking for a trex or larger when I have a bit more money.

i have a question for you. How do you find out where people in your area fly. I live in Sacramento, CA, which is kinda large, and I don't know where or when other heli pilots fly. Is there a website with this info, maybe somewhere on helifreaks?

thanks

[WayneBrown]

http://www.pilotlocator.net/index.php
Link is here under pretty logo at top of page..

[bighands3d]

Flight sim is the way to learn. pick up a used G2 or a G3 start beating the computer chair up. This is the fastest and Cheapest way to learn and the most successful way to get were you want to go Quickly.

Once you've mastered the basic's while saving $$$$ you can buy a nitro. It's best to build your first machine this will help you later on with repairs and any technical questions you may have. We're here to help All the advice above is Correct you will spend more time and money trying to fly a micro than you would a Nitro machine. you want to fly not have to pittle with the thing all the time.

I would Recomend the Raptor V2 50 easy to build and set up. Fly very smooth right out ot the box. you don't need a fancy engine either the OS50SX-H is fine. look for a used set up maybe to help you save money just beware if you buy from RR. :shock: Most everyone here has a good rep to purchase from. I have two Raptors complete and JR 8103 for Sale they are older versions one .30 and one .50 for Sale $1100. both with 401gyros one is new.

[Curtis Burns]

I got to fly my MX400 the other day and after that I'm convinced any heli smaller than a 30 is a toy and some 30's are damn near. (for those of you that don't know, the MX400 is much like the t-rex.) I bought it because it looked cool and I thought I had everything I needed to get it up and going already, WRONG!!! Nothing I had would fit or work. So I had to buy a $75 motor, $55 controller, (2) $55 Lipos, $120 gyro, (4) $25 servos and a $25 crash kit. Now after spending $485 plus $150 heli I've spent around $685 give or take some taxes. I could have easily bought a 50 Raptor for that. The good news is, I can use most of these parts for my foamies. If any one wants this heli, I'll take a small loss and send it to you.

Curt

[jodaboda]

Thanks for the advice. I bought G3 off ebay for a good price a couple weeks ago, and am waiting for delivery this week. I've been flying FMS in the meantime, which is fun but at times limiting and frustrating (not to mention you have to fly in a tiny area and if you go past that you're in the white twillight zone). I think I'm also going to try Ms flight simulator 2004 with ppjoy and an rc tx.

I don't want to start a whole new thread about it, so I'll just ask you raptor-guys: What is an equivalent ELECTRIC (sorry to disappoint) heli to the 30s? Are the Logo 10s in that size range? What would you recommend for an electric in the non-micro category? I would prefer something with cheap and readily-available parts.

thanks for any and all responses

Oh, by the way, thanks Lamebird for the link. I used it to find the 6 registered pilots in my area and send them e-mails. Hopefully I'll be making some pilot friends around here.

[WayneBrown]

glad to have helped. Let us know how you progress ok?

[bighands3d]

The only problem your going to run into with a .30 size electric is charges and LIpo packs. the packs cost more than the heli. And you will need Two sets, plus a charger that will be able to charge larger packs. like the orbit or Schulctzs which are expensive. Not sure why you don't want a nitiro. But the new Swift from Century is nice. Check out the new issue of RC heli.

Good luck with your decission

[Laurens]

You don't NEED 2 sets, one set will do.

Also I noticed the cheap micro CP's aren't cheap. A friend crashed one yesterday, a Walkera DF 35, and almost NOTHING survived the crash.

[ShogunFreek]

Hi,

The JR VoyagerE is the closest to a 30 size Heli you'll get in the e-world.

I've got a Shogunv1 blinged out a bit, I like it much, altho I will agree with other posters wrt spare parts, etc.

My next bird will probably be a VoyagerE, mebbe a Rappy30, dunno.

Good Luck !

Freek

[Laurens]

logo 10 or Century swift are better. Also try the Spirit Li :glasses2:

[alephx01]

Lots of e-hatin' going on in here ;)

I'm no expert, in fact, I've just gotten use to tail-in hovering, but I felt I needed to say that the ability to fly my BCP in my kitchen and its general accessibility really contributed to the amount of practice I could get.

It is "squirrely". It is tempermental. I've probably spend the cost and then some of the helicopter body in repairs (stupidity mostly). But I can fly it 2-3 times a day after coming home from work at 7pm. Probably more if I had more batteries.

I've done this with the stock NiMH battery and leared to tail-in hover in about a week. From what I am reading, if you want to immediately progress on to aerobatics and 3D, you want a nice stable heli. If you're going for that then maybe a big nitro is what you want. Personnally, I'm having tons of fun dancing with the heli to keep it hovering in one place. i.e., the fun for me right now is in keeping it in one place, not the aero or the 3D. These, I'll advance to later. I'll probably need a bit of retraining as mentioned above but from what I hear, if you can pilot an e-Micro, you can keep a bigger heli stable much easier.

Remember. Just because they're smaller and have less power doesn't mean a bumper car can't be as fun as driving a Porsche. Two different things altogether. A heli is not a heli is not a heli.

[swatson144]

I've got 1/2 dozen "toys" 2 x400s 1 Hornet 2, an FP hummingbird (mothed) 1 GWS mini dragonfly and a Corona. I really like them all.

It's not a cheap hobby.

I gave up glow (never flown a glow heli) because of the time to get out of the city. With my E heli I can either FF in my little side yard or cross the street to the church lot and work on what I'm having problems with. Right now thats fast backwards figure 8s.

I recently got a 2nd hand Corona and that would definately be the recommended heli. I crash a lot! It don't break. My learning grew exponentially with the decrease of repairs when I screw up. I've learned the most from the fixed pitches.

I started with CP because I got a bunch of info telling me they were the ONLY WAY TO GO!! I found they were fine until I went to learning nose in and FFF then the repair bills mounted and down time. I bought an FP and when I dumb thumbed I'd just walk over set it back up and go again. Chuckling. It got fun at that point when I could do good level smooth circuits with an FP heck I could do them with a CP without costly crashes. More time in the air and I really started to learn!

The corona is a very nice heli to begin with, because of this they hold a very good resale value. They'll run the same motors and batteries as the very popular 400 sized (trex, x400 etc) so you don't get dead ended (which is very likely with the 300s). They'll carry SC nimh packs which you can buy from others who have gone lipo, cheaply to begin with (extra weight won't hurt learning to hover). Mine's plain stock wooden crutch, geared tail, 020, 2100 mAH 3s1p. My last crash was from 12' when I managed to stick the tail into a tree. Picked it up and straightened it out and flew the rest of the pack out, even though it was getting too windy.

I'd say buy a good TX (not just the 4ch required) and a Corona and enjoy.

Steve

[heliboy1023]

Start with a t-rex SE(yes expensive, but very, very tough when it comes to having crashes. JUst use 2 flybar weights, and negitive, or positive expo), or a nice glow machine, and here is why:

I first started out with a blade cp, thinking rc heli's are easy. Well, I was wrong. $200 later in repair parts, and I already spent what I did on the heli. (Mind you I work at a hobby shop, so if I didn't, it would have been closer to $300). So I finally bought a sim. $80 right there. (I lucked out, we still our old G2, which my boss sold to me) So right now, I already spent $480. After buying a cp ARF kit, and moving my electrics, I now spent a total of $560. FInally though, after 2 weeks of only the sim, and hour a day each, I went out flying again, and was able to hover a pack. Well, probably $50 later in crashes(which was about 3 months), I knew I needed something better, and easier. $610 spent so far mind you.
Since I couldn't afford a nitro machine (I would have went with top of the line stuff, and the price came out to $1650, so that is my new toy in 2 months) I got a t-rex xl ccpm (Better than the se when I bought it since only the swash had a problem, nothing else) I then put in a very good motor, and the best esc IMO, the jazz. Then I also bought a nice tp 2100, good charger and balancer. I put in the best servo's at the time 65's, and a 401 gyro. I paired this all with a 7c, and a hitec electron 6 (no glitching for me) I spent $1200 just on it. So now I have spent $1810, the price of that nice raptor 50 I wanted, and starting equipment, and a case of fuel.

However, now, I have one hell of a nice flying t-rex, yet still an empty pocket. Yet I did learn one thing,

DON'T GO CHEAP!!! You get what you pay for, and normally, cheap stuff will only cause problems, or crashes. SO get yourself, either a nice raptor 50, or a nice t-rex (now an se due to the fact the kits are now being made well). Also find a LHS to help you.