I got it...

[50feet]

Can I mellow out the reponce of my Ion? I'm used to flying the Eco 8 to Logo 20 sizes heli's, I did not us 3D paddle and I kept the HS around 1700. I also used about -25% expo to have a real mellow control.

My Ion is powered by the stock motor and controller on 32 round cells for now. It has like 700mm TT cabon blades(they look like BBTS), MA 3D paddles and, flybar wieghts. I tach'ed the HS at 1800 with a 58t counter gear. On my maiden I found the control to be to wild for me. With -30% expo. I was still very sensitve. So I dialed in 75% on the dual rate thinking that the combo would mellow it out a bit and it is still more wild than all of my other setups. If you have G2. Feels like the 3D Caliber 60 when I want it to feel like the competition 60.

Even with all the weight this heli can move. What can I do? Add more flybar weights? Replace the 3D paddles? Increse the expo curve?

[Russ McC]

50Feet,

Increasing the expo would be dangerous, it may already be at a dangerous point, put it back at 30%!!!! Too much expo causes the rate to be too high at the edges and if you get out there it can crash you in the blink of an eye. Heavier paddles can help but the main thing is that you can reduce the amount the swash tilts by lowering your travel values in your TX, try about 4 or 5 degrees of cyclic pitch rather then the 6 or 7 degrees you might have now. 5 degrees will let you perform most aerobatics and still give a very stable hover :glasses2:

[50feet]

Thanks Russ...

I meant decrease the expo. I did not know if this was what I should expect of this heli or if it could actually be tuned down. I will have to play with it a bit.

Russ can you tell me how to calculate the gear ratio for this 2 stage system or the formula used to calculate head speed?

[misskimo]

are you going the right way on your expo, futaba is the opposite than JR , but I would go to your swash 120 and tone down ail and elev , if its 50 on both , go to 40 until you like how it reacts , and plus , they have flybar weights that can tone it down ,

[50feet]

Ok.. use the swash setting. I was using the Dual Rate I will try that.

One last question. Im cant really spare the cash for 8000mah lipos with Xmas breathing on my neck so Im looking for some cheaper options. How many amps will this ship need for some good sport flying, no 3D or catapolting.

[fitenfyr]

The best thing to do IMO when it comes to gearing and amps questions is to get with Chris at MA.
Either call him next week or shoot him a PM here.

To me I think you need to come down in gearing a bit. Maybe to the 60T. This would slow your head speed down a bit.

To figure your gear ratio is simple.
Take the KV of the Hacker..can't recall that right this second multiply that by the Volts that you are putting it at FULL charge.
This will give you the motor RPM at full power/charge. Course that will go down a tad after you have been flying for a bit and under load.

Next take the secondary gear (your 58t) and divide that by the pinion gear on the motor (stock is an 11T if I recall). This will give you your first reduction...
For example 60t secondary and 10t pinion would be 6:1.
Just think of that number as your new "pinion" gear.

Now take the first number you get out of that formula (the 6) and divide the main gear by that (should be a 95t stock). This will give you your final drive to the head.
Same example here 95 main and 10 secondary drive would be 9.5:1
This is how you figure the ratio on any other ship.

Now you have your last formula to work to get headspeed.
Multiply the RPM of the motor by the ratio....
40,0000 x 9.5= Ludicrious speed. :D :D: no seriously it would be 4200 RPM or so at the head....:D

Clear as mud. :D :D

Chris will probably see this and drop some good suggestions for you, but that will at least give you something to gnaw on till he does.
He has done a bunch of work with the round cells and knows just what works.

Duralite has a GREAT deal right now on packs. If you ever were looking at getting into LiPo's this is a good time.

As for overall de-tuning the Ion.
Make sure you follow the mixer settings in the manual for a "FAI" style setting. It will be the mixers on the inner balls and the flybar control arms almost level.
While you are at it drop the 50.00 and get the newest flybar control arm ala Stratus. You will be amazed at how much better it flys with that setup.

[Russ McC]

Add both ratios from you two stage reduction, I think yours is 22.2 to 1. You motor is about 1000rpm per volt so 40V=40000rpm, 40000 devided by 22.2=1801 head rpm. This is normal, I run 1900 to 2000rpm my self and like it, but that’s for me not everybody. I think you can use a 60 tooth lay shaft gear but you probably won’t loose much rpm from where you are now. Shannon Davis has run a GV-1 on his and set lower head speeds so perhaps the controller can handle lower values and not over heat but I have not tried that and lower values may only be ok for hovering. Slowing the head would mellow it out but if you can’t do that then just go to the swash menu and dial it back. I have only used LiPos so I’m not much help on the battery question.

[50feet]

I have a 15 tooth pinion. So 58/15= 3.86 (3.86:1), 90/3=30... :?: Im lost already!

What is my second ratio, 30:1? Just to be clear this heli has a 15 tooth pinion, 58 tooth counter gear, 90 tooth main, and a 15 tooth gear that touchs the main gear.

If I am right that would be 40000 /33.86= 1181 and thats wrong :arggg:

[fitenfyr]

Ooopppsss...I messed you up....:D and missed a step in that earlier mud pie...:roll:

That's what I get for trying to type something I have to visualize myself... :roll:

Ok how about this.....

First ratio
58/15=3.86:1 right....

Second ratio
90/15=6:1

Now think of it this way....
Your 15t pinion above the 58t is turning 1 time for every 4 turns (rounding up from 3.86) of the motor.
So for every 1 turn of the main gear you are getting 6 turns of the 15t pinion....

So the math is now 3.86x6=23.16
Now you know that for evey turn of the main gear you get 23.16 turns of the motor. So your final drive is 23.16:1
That by my math gives you a headspeed of about 1700 if the motor is turning 40K.

Is that clearer....now you see why I always call and bug Chris when I am comtemplating a gear change....:D
He checks my math for me. :D :D :D

Russ I still don't get your method. Maybe I am missing something.....

[Russ McC]

No I missed somthing :mrgreen: 23.16 is right.

[BobbySmith]

Y ou need to check youre cyclic as Russ stated above before you start messing wiht the swash menu changing the values will change cyclic and slow down response the values all depend on the helicopters set up min is 55 degrees on ail and elev and iam running 6 1/2 degrees cyclic differant head speeds will change how it feels as well.
I would also recomennd some SAB paddles take the stock white ones off if you want it to be reall smooth
my .02
Bobby

[ChrisS]

Hi 50feet

to calculate the unloaded headspeed you need to figure motor speed divided by gear ratio thusly:

Hacker Kv=1100
Roundcell nominal voltage voltage= 32*1.2
Upper gear ratio= 90/15=6:1
Lower gear ratio=58/15=3.867:1
Final drive ratio=upper*lower=6*3.867=23.2:1
Unloaded headspeed=(Kv*Vnominal)/final drive ratio=(1100*32*1.2)/23.2=1820rpm

This is somewhat optimistic as the terminal voltage of the cells will quickly drop as you run the pack, a better number for them is more like 1.1V/cell rendering 1668 rpm...loaded.

This is really somewhat slow comparitively speaking, most guys run a headspeed on this model a good bit higher than that. Are you sure you do not have a 54 or 55 tooth first stage gear?

To tone down the cyclic, I like -40% expo (Futaba, for JR drop the "-" sign) with the white paddles...NO dual rates. I have always believed dual rates and helicopters to be a bad thing. If you need less cylic still, Reduce the cyclic settings from 60% to 50% or less. Flybar weights or heavy paddles will also help.

FWIW

Chris

[fitenfyr]

Ahhh....The "master" has spoken. :D

You explained that so much clearer than I did. :D :D

[50feet]

Chris...Thanks. Some one wrote C50xl on the ion motor box. If this is the motor used stock it has a KV of 1120. Using the calculation I get 1850 HS. fresh off the charger I tach'd 1800 solid for serveral seconds.

I may just have to get use to the new speed. I just dont want to crash while doing it. Im not one of those guys that needs 2000+ because I dont do Hard 3D. I was very happy with the the feel on my eco 8 and logo 20 using lipos @ 1700.

[fitenfyr]

The Ion has a different feel to it.
I definately felt lighter and more responsive when I first got mine.
Dial down the swash travel and see how it feels.

Also it sounds like you got this used.
Double check the entire setup to ensure that the linkages are at the correct length.
You could be dealing with a bad mechanical setup and that is exagerating the cyclic responsiveness.

They take some getting used to and a bit of a learning curve, but after a bit you will wonder why you messed with anything else. :D

[ChrisS]

50feet

Yeah the motor is a modified C50-15XL, although today all XL's might be made the same way.

Sounds like we pretty much got the same numbers, something around 1800 rpm at the top of a charge, which is a good speed to turn. At that speed the head feels nice and crisp. It will fly fine down below 1600 but gets much "mushier" there.

It's very refreshing to me to see someone using roundcells. So many overlook these today in favor of the "latest and greatest" stuff. There is much to be had with roundcells.

Jason

You are too complimentary, but thanks.

Chris

[fitenfyr]

I agree with Chris....
If I hadn't gotten "sucked" into the LiPo bit right from the start I would have gotten a bunch of round cell packs for my application.

Now I have a bit too much invested in the LiPo's to go backwards, but somedays I think hard about it...:roll:

The charge times are killing me. :D
If I could afford 5 sets of packs then it would be no issue, but with the sometimes fast turns we do on the job having to wait an hour to charge is brutal.
I have finally dumped the cash on a second set of cells, but only after the substancial price cut the Duralite has going right now. :D

I think I could have bought about 10 round cell packs for what I now have invested in LiPo's. Each would have given me about 7 minutes or so of flight time and would recharge in just about double that time.
Course 3D and sport flying would be a much shorter flight than my aerial work.

[50feet]

Thanks to all for the advice.

I got it dialed in to were I like it and I got over the fear of the new size, speed and power. I get like 8 minutes in the air of basic sport stuff and the motor and controller are not hot at all. It about 55 out right now. Yesterday it was cold and I was getting use to the power and the controller was getting hot. So set my thro curves for idle 2-3 to 100 95 90 95 100. I also added a heat sink. I didn't cut the case I just mounted them on the sticker with some thermal grease to help with the heat transfer. It works great. I have to play try different blades. I am getting a good deal of pitch up in FFF. But it hover hands off for like 6 seconds or more and one drift a foot or 2.

The GP 3300's work but I think I will have to try 3600 3700 or 3800 cells. I don't want to be forced to go lipo's and I don't want to sell it but I think I will before I go to lipos.

I had a scare yesterday.. I tried to pull out from a fast decent and I had no power. I stopped buy giving it full pitch and put it down. I'm thinking I blow the controller, motor something. I check the temps and every thing was cool. So I get home drop the batteries on the charger and on pack peaks in 6 minutes the other 45. I'm thinking bad cell now so I cut open the pack assembled by CBP all cells were good but then i noticed the flex. It was a tab that was not soldered. I inspected the rest of the taps and 3 were very lightly soldered. I mean the was a very thin plating of solder on the tap and the cell. I easily broke them loose. So I broke out the 80watt iron and fixed them.

I am still bumping ever thing with the tail while moving it around. I have also been hauling it in the back seat of my car because I didn't think it would fit in the trunk. I was wrong.

[MinAirChris]

When last I flew roundcells, I used the HRSC 2600's hot off the charger. They gave five minutes or so of fairly spirited flight.

FWIW

Chris

[BobbySmith]

Man i was doing some reading on those new 3800's i bet they would shock all of us and you could have about 20 packs :dontknow :smokin:

[misskimo]

yeh , with the weight being the same as those bricks that tanic has , 8880s , but the Ion carries it well, but Im staying with lipos , those 5300 weight about as much as 23 of those 3800 , talking about a big difference ,

Tony
go lipo before you sell it , and also wait till next year , dewalt is coming out with a new battery that is 36 volts , and take a charge in 5 min
http://www.helifreak.com/about9347.html

The first 36V DeWalts should be demonstrated at the International
> Builders Show in Orlando Florida January 11 thru 13, 2006.
>

Tony

[BobbySmith]

HEHE yea TOny the TP 5300 just flat out ROCK!!!!!!!!!! :smokin:

[fitenfyr]

The pitching in FFF is also a result of the flybar.
If you put the new flybar carrier on there the pitching will go away totally with good blades.

I got some with both my V blades and my SAB's before the new carrier now I get none what so ever.

Glad you got it dialed in....

[WillJames]

The pitching could also be the balance of your model. I never realized how much balance mattered until I started flying the Ion where it is hard to exactly match where your packs are strapped on every time. Since I fly the "Bricks" Tony mentioned above, and also a couple sets of much lighter packs, it can be a challence to get the balance right every time. Very interesting learning experience.

[misskimo]

sorry Will , but they have some snort though, Brian sure didnt like it to well when I told him and Bobby that those are bricks , :arggg: :arggg: 2 head bangers ,
I put my standard TP 8000 3/4 " honging over the front , but your 3300 are different , so you are on you own there

Tony