New head dampeners

[Jerry]

Tony,

its ashame , that Tim looks at it as to much power , huh

Probably taken a bit out of context. I doubt that MinAir would make such a statement.



Jerry

[Jerry]

Jerry iam a dealer i just got these friday before mulberry i have 8 sets i was told how great they were figured i would try a set

The whole head will go there if iam asked to take it other wise it is just to much power i guess! Know Idea

Thats why i posted this to give people a heads up iam almost @ 400.00 dollars on my rebuild and have yet not started to include Minair parts

I did not realize you were a dealer.

Hopefully the parts will get to MinAir to be evaluated. Hopefully Bobby can report back to us soon with the findings.

Jerry

[megotroulette]

i think i might stick with the orings for a while i think... i don't want any boom strikes :mrgreen:

[lek3d]

So...if the damp was purchased after Mid-Nov so it will Ok then....I'm i correct...
:cool:

[BobbySmith]

HEHE Hey JERRY man that was straight out of the horses mouth we a running to much power!!


Also iam using teh latest batch

Bobby

[angelob]

The first batch of production dampeners did indeed have a manufacturing error. They did not meet specified tolerances. We are talking about approximately 20-30 sets. As soon as MinAir became aware of this error, Tim did not send anymore out to dealers. He also began an attempt to bring that 20 - 30 sets back in

Unfortunately, this seems to be typical MA. Where is there a note on their website, or on any of these forums? Also unfortunate is that it cost someone a helicopter.

Angelo

[DavidH]

Quote:
The first batch of production dampeners did indeed have a manufacturing error. They did not meet specified tolerances. We are talking about approximately 20-30 sets. As soon as MinAir became aware of this error, Tim did not send anymore out to dealers. He also began an attempt to bring that 20 - 30 sets back in


Unfortunately, this seems to be typical MA. Where is there a note on their website, or on any of these forums? Also unfortunate is that it cost someone a helicopter.

Angelo



Also iam using teh latest batch

Bobby


These were not the original ones. Most of the original sets were recovered. Not all of them as I still have two sets and using one set of them in a Tempest.

David

[pilotError]

I have a NIP set as well. I ordered them along with the new flybar carrier when I first heard about them... They didn't even have a part number on them yet.

I guess I should send them back.

Mike...

[GA-3D]

Are you the guy who crashed the piss out of your electric miniature machine due to another tailbox failure at ircha se Bobby? I saw the wreck at se and I would be pissed as heck if I lost 2 machines in one month due to bad miniature parts.

[BobbySmith]

LOL to funny some people have way to much time on there hands

YES GA that was my ION


Bobby

[Rodney]

I was there when this one went in. Bert is a very good pilot, it was not anything he did or was doing. The heli clearly boomstruck in the middle of a nice smooth snake.
Bert is not a well know pilot, as least not until this, but he is very good. We will have to wait and see what Tims reply to this problem is.

[BobbySmith]

WOW very cool that post of jasonkrause22 is gone!!!!!


Bobby

[WillJames]

One of the MA moderators got it. I was in the middle of editing it per our policy.

[misskimo]

:glasses:

[WillJames]

X-Jason was:

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[carey shurley]

guys, this thread just seems to be going on and on with no real point anymore.

Here are some observations (some that were pointed out earlier).

when the first one piece dampers were produced, there was a problem with some of them. Once this was discovered and confirmed, the delivered orders were replaced with new dampers that had been individually checked. The original manufacturing issue was resolved and since then, there have been no new issues directly related to dampers.

Earlier there was a comment about "too much power" being a possible cause of boom strikes, but this wasn't well explained.

Today's helicopter motors put out more power than anything in the history of model helicopters. Once upon a time, if you put in too much collective, cyclic or t/r, the motor couldn't support it and simply slowed down some. This took the load off all the driveline and rotor head parts and also kept you from doing certain kinds of manuevers (nothing to do with dampers)

That doesn't happen any more. No matter what you do, the motor keeps going. As a result, folks have developed all sorts of new maneuvers. Some of which can outright result in boom strikes. Every one of the top pilots can take any .90 size model available, and cut the tail boom off of it in 30 seconds or less with one maneuver. Ask Eric, Matt, Clint, Wayne, Mike, Marcus, Danny, etc, they'll tell you that they've learned to do those maneuvers in a way that won't boom strike (again, nothing to do with dampers)

Doesnt' mean that Bert or you were doing this, but it clearly indicates that its possible to boom strike a perfectly built and manufactured model helicopter because the available power lets you do things you didn't used to be able to do.

I know Bert and know he's a good pilot. I have no doubt he was controlling the model. That doesn't mean that "something" didn't happen. Links pop off, things come loose, any number of things could cause a boom strike, unrelated to dampers. Things happen.

[Bert Kammerer]

Russ: if this is true then the dampers where not the only thing to be changed but the pilot also

Russ: Don't know why you keep blaming me right off the bat Russ. You simply don't know my skill level as you have never seen my fly. You can't simply and deliberately blame me for this. I took off and started doing rough maneuvers like tight around the clock tic tocs, then I did a couple of backward hurricanes, tail down inverted funnels, etc. I then started to do a 3-transition snake (very wide) with very smooth collective transitions and all of the sudden around the snake circle (not even during a collective transition), I just felt and heard a "boom" and all I could do was to hit the hold.

Carey: You probably haven't seen me fly recently because Saturday at Mulberry when you were there I was having issues with my Tempest. However, I can tell you that I do this exact same snake with my Tempest as well as with my Stratus every single time I fly and I have never had an issue. There are lots of maneuvers that I am still learning and I am rough at, but the snake for sure isn't one of them as I have been flying backwards as well as backwards inverted for a while and I like very wide snakes with very smooth collective transitions. I can't say with 100% certainty that the dampeners were to blame, but I can say for sure that the helicopter exploded in mid air by itself and not as a result of improper pilot input.

[BobbySmith]

Hey you are rocking Bert i cant seem to get unnerved @ these FF and always fly like crap

Any ways i would like to say the thread is going some were because i still havent herd from TIM! But Chris pm'd me and askled me to send the head still assembled and it is headed there tomorrow
I t would be great if we could check the durometer on the Dampeners in it.

Bobby

[Russ McC]

Ok, what ever the case it is sad to hear. If he was not yanking on the model very heard then it would be more likely something came apart in the head, you can yank pretty heard even with very soft dampening. However a backward traveling snake definitely does create loads that could bring the disk to the boom. Either way sorry!

This was my last post Bert and bringing in the fact that Bobby was not flying the model was not intended to 100% blame you for the problem but to get every thing out in the open to hear the hole story and maybe figure out what happened. If the flight was as you said it was with hard maneuvering in the beginning and then opening out into a big open snake (I like those big and open to) then what even makes you all think the problem was damping, the dampers would have to be jello to deflect that far with light loading, they would not have made it through the beginning of the flight, If it’s all like you say then something came apart on the head. Either way we pay to play and some times it hearts, some times the manufacture will help and some times not, look at the bright side you and Bob can hang out and spend some time putting it back together and it will be ok in the end and the model will be fresh, I know it still sucks but that’s the best I have to offer.

[Bert Kammerer]

the dampers would have to be jello to deflect that far with light loading, they would not have made it through the beginning of the flight, If it’s all like you say then something came apart on the head

I agree Russ. Even though I believe the dampeners could have been it, I cannot guarantee it. I need to be fair and objective. If I would have janked the controls or made a bad mistake, I would have admitted it and hell, I would have even paid for Bobby's heli, but I know for a fact that the heli stroke the boom without a justifiable reason. Although in my opinion the dampeners could have been the cause, I cannot say for sure. I hope Bobby sends the head to MA so they can inspect it along with the dampeners and give us their assessment.

Bert

[misskimo]

hope it gets ruled in a good manner

[X]

I got 5 sets of them on Nov 5 and all of them will go back to MA. Do you guy have part number for 90 o-rings with 2 white dot?

Thanks,
x

[EricLarson]

Well just to post some info on this as I have gotten quite a few emails. Here is what I know to be true. No cheer-leading, just facts about what I know:

I made a lot of phone calls around and so did Matt Botos. Right now I have gotten a few concerns from people that are not sure if they have an issue or not, but I have not gotten any feedback as to any confirmed problems. This is the 1st issue that has popped up with the final dampeners according to what I know of and have been told. So far I don't believe we have found any dampeners that are not per spec. I don't think Tim has checked those in Bobby's head yet.

Some background:

These dampeners are a result of a lot of testing on the rotor head over the year. I have several sets in various forms that I and Matt have flow most of the season. One set of mine is the original set and it has about 200 flights on them and still look and act near new.

** The reason for the dampeners is to provide more consistent dampening and for them to last a lot longer. The double white worked ok for about 15-20 flights and then need to be changed out due to deformation. Also the double whites usually wobble when they are installed as they are deformed due to their shape and the air space in between them. This results in the wobble due to the spindle being held in the head crooked. If you dial the spindle with double whites, the spindle is most always crooked in the head. That gets noticeably worse every flight. The new dampener material is the SAME material as in the new fan dampeners. The fan dampeners have been a huge success and have shown that they last a very long time. The rubber used has different properties than the rubber in the orings and will act differently. I have not heard of any fan dampeners that have failed or gotten soft over time.
**

The initial production run ones came out of the production mold and a problem was found in the process. Those dampeners had obvious problems and where taken back.

This final run ones are all checked before they leave MA. I have 2 sets in machines, and Matt has at least 1 set in a machine. They where in my machine a few weeks before Mulberry and that was the machine I flew at the event. They have about 50 flights on them now and I just pulled them and checked them again. Right now they look just like the original prototypes and the hardness is normal. All of the flying I did at Mulberry including the video's and all of Matt's and Nick's flying where with the new dampeners.

Is there a problem? Well I frankly don't know and that is based on the info I have. So far this is the 1st case I know of this happening with the final production dampeners. I don't know of anyone else with any type of "softness" to the dampeners. Also the only way they could really get soft over time is if they are not cured properly. Right now we have not see that, EXCEPT with the initial run. The clutch dampers also where a very good proving ground for the material and they also have not changed hardness from anyone that I have been told of. All I can comment on is what I know. So there it is.

BOOM STIKES

Ok long story short is boom strikes can happen for many reasons. To lead this off I will say that I have flown heads that where SOLID and I still knocked off a tail boom..... If the dampeners are too soft it can of course make it easier to do in some situations. Keep in mind that FAI pilots often run very soft dampened heads and don't have boom strikes in negative maneuvers.

I don't do it too often but from time to time I do have a boom strike. The reason boom strikes happen is fairly simple. When the blades stall due to too much pitch they have the opportunity to impact the boom. When we pull aft cyclic and negative pitch if the right conditions are met it could result in a tail boom strike. Now normally this takes a Big motor, Lots of power, -10+ degrees of pitch, and some cyclic probably more than 5 degrees. I have seen it happen on a lot of machines from all of the manufacturers. If I try to do it, I probably can with just about any machine.

Also there is another possibility. Mechanical failure (i.e. popping a link, bell mixer coming loose or loosing a ball, or other failure in the head) can also cause a boom strike. Linkage binding, work control balls, or just plain bad luck can lead to that type of failure.

One of the biggest things to remember is that pilot inputs can cause this or they may not have anything to do with it. It may just be a coincidence that a failure happens at a given time. I have scratched my head several times after a boom strike and wondered what my have gone wrong.

*** Anyway long story short. If there is a problem I am sure MA will address it. So far this is the 1st indication and there are a lot of them out there right now. The old dampeners (orings) work fine, though they are sure not without problems. The new dampers where developed for a reason. I also have had several boom strikes with the old orings and the orings wore out very quickly resulting in a lot of problems. Right now the original new 1 piece dampeners have been in my #1 machine for most of the season and they look and fly near new. The final ones in my other machine look and feel the same after 50 flight.

You know what I know.

I am sure sorry to hear about the crash. Any crash sucks and boom strikes are among the crappiest things to have happen.

[00boto]

If "The heli clearly boomstruck in the middle of a nice smooth snake." how could that be the head dampening? Key word here is smooth, if you are flying smooth then the odds of having a boomstrike due to head dampening are pretty slim. As Eric said, we have been running these one piece dampers for sometime now with zero issues. I can only conclude that if it truely was smooth flight then something else failed in flight.

Matt

[misskimo]

:)
Im still useing the orings