1st Day Out + Hurri Crashes Itself = DAMNIT!

[mrhumble1]

Greetings all, :bawl

Well, I'd appreciate a hand figuring out why my Hurri buried itself today.

I flew through 2 packs working on getting the tail right to hold properly. These 2 packs were spent mostly hovering. I had to lower the gain a lot and then the tail seemed to hold well enough. BTW, I am using the Trex 600 tail, a brand new GY401 Gyro, and a Hyperion DS20GMD digital servo for tail control.

Throughout these flights the heli seemed very twitchy and odd-feeling. I thought it was just because of the high headspeed (which I must have since everyone told me to run the throttle at 100%) and that I would get used to the twitchy-ness.

Third flight and I take it around for some circuits. The tail is still a little off, but I deal with it. Then, the heli just starts to feel really un-safe. It doesn't seem to take my inputs well and then while turning right after a pass it jerks/banks hard to the right. That's enough for me, so I bring it in. It gets to 5 feet and I begin to descend to land when it dives straight into the ground, canopy first.

Carnage:

Battery-dead.
ESC-maybe dead (some capacitors are loose and I don't trust it)

The usual - blades, boom, flybar, etc

Not too bad, but the battery hurts, and the ESC too since I don't think Align will repair it.

There's a small catch. The receiver was the same one that was in my Trex 500 when I crashed it. I am guessing THIS crash was related to the receiver in some way (glitch, interference, static, or it was damaged already from the previous crash).

I need a hand figuring out how to proceed. I am going to send BOTH receivers (I bought a new one, but it was DOA) and BOTH gyros (I know the other one is broken) in for repair. I need to figure out what was causing the tail to drift and jump, and I need to figure out why the heli decided to crash itself.

Any and all ideas would be helpful.

A few notes/thoughts:

1. I used a separate "BEC" (really just a step down) and 7.4v battery, both from Align. I have never used this kind of thing before and don't know if they can cause glitches or un-clean power to the receiver.

2. I have the carbon frames, and I had the receiver on the shelf under the motor, not the one under the tail housing. Should I have put the receiver on the other shelf?

3. Are these 550s susceptible to belt static like the Trex 500s are?

Finally, most crashes are just upgrade opportunities. I know I am going to get the long boom and longer blades (550s). Which metal tail is the best upgrade? How about gearing? Should I get the 20t OWB and the 50t main gear?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I'm bummed and need help/support/sympathy/a clue, etc...

Jason

[Drew816]

Sorry to hear about your crash; bummer!

Now how about cluing us in as to what receiver you're using... ;)

[rotorhead58d]

will the kasama tail fit? i know the raptor boom, and 550 boom are the same diameter. 150 dollar tail, but worth it. i might get one some day

[mrhumble1]

Receiver info would help now wouldn't it?

I was using a AR6200 Spektrum receiver. As I said, the main receiver was on the shelf under the motor. The satellite receiver is on the right side at the very rear end of the frame. See the attached pics for details. You can see the receiver in the pic that shows the left side of the heli.

As for a $150 tail, that is definitely not in my budget especially since I may have to buy a new ESC. Also, if I am going to spend money on anything it is gonna be a new motor.


Jason

[michael88997]

what do you mean by ur bec is really just a stepdown? is it running the servos? how many amps does it put out? also did u range check ur heli before u flew? and check to see if any of the wires are hitting the carbon fiber frames, i know that can mess with ur signal which is why u can put fuel line or something around it

[Aussie_G]

I use the same align BEC & 1900mAh 7.4v lipo, works great for me (so far)
I would be suspect of the wiring of the servo's rubbing on the frame, also lookm for any binding, but if you were in a stable hover, binding shouldnt really be an issue, binding usually occurs at full servo extensions.
Also look for overly tight ball links.

Heck, the more I think about it, the more things it could be..
Tight/damaged ball links on the head
stripped servo gears
damaged reciever/antenna wire
bad or under charged reciever battery

and lastly, the thumbs :)

[mrhumble1]

From what I have read, BEC means "Battery Eliminator Circuit and it is supposed to be wired in between the main battery and the receiver (or function as part of the ESC), thus "eliminating" the need for a separate battery.

Align's "BEC" requires a separate battery so it really isn't a BEC. As for it's output, it puts out 5.8v and all of my electronics are compatible with 6v.

The wiring in this heli is done pretty much the same as the wiring I had in my Trex 500. Next time, I will make more of an effort to keep all wires away from the frame. I guess I'll have to wrap it all in mesh before I tie it together. However I have seen plenty of other people tie their wires to carbon frames with no ill effect.

Range check was fine. Balls fit nicely and were pretty loose. Nothing was bound up. I checked the receiver battery with the Align meter and it was at 85% when I took it up.

As for thumbs, I have flown for a long time. I brought the heli in and was hovering it down. Landing a heli from 5 feet up is not a problem. This heli just dove itself into the dirt.

Any more suggestions??

Jason

[mjdee14]

MH...

Sorry to hear about the crash.....that's a bummer, especially on maiden flights....it's a discouragement...

Just a couple of observations....

1. it looks like your tail rod end is in very close to the servo.....they recommend 12 -14mm from center.....maybe the picture is an allusion...

2. I wouldn't place the rcvr "under" the motor....you are surrounding it by carbon fiber in almost all directions.....you want the antennas in "clean air if possible.....I have my main rcvr handing down on the left side.....and the satelite on the right side.....you might have blocked the signal ...which Cf is real good at doing....

I have not heard anyone lately complain about static on the 550.....a friend sprays "static guard" on his trex 500 before every flight.....

I would move you rcvrs....and range check in a 360 deg circle and see what you get....install the main batteries, but don't hook them up....just use the voltage regulator, but having the batteries installed you can see if they mask the signal....

See the attached on how I have mine mounted....yu may want to hide the wires more, but I just wanted the best antenna placement.....so far (knock, knock) I have never had a glitch or moment of uncontrolability....

Also.....who in the heck told you to run 100% headspeed.......most people run 80 -95%.....!!! Not sure hwat your set up and experience level is but I would only be running about 85-90% max in the beggining and I would be using about 40 -50 % expo on my elev and aileron..... And "NO" your not a wuss for using EXPO....it does not cut down on the amount of travel you have available....it just makes the heli a "hell of a lot less twitchy".....

I run as much as 50% expo.....and many at my field have commented on how smooth I fly.....

How was you balance? witgh flybars perendiculair to the fuse.....did it balance level?

Also....for landings I use normal with a TC of 70 - 80%...it really makes a difference not having it screaming in IU1 at 2100 rpms.....

again, not knowing your experience level I may be telling you stuff you already know.....

But the 550 isa great ship and handles very well when set up properly...

Fix it up and get back up there.....and for goodness sake....lower your headspeed....

[mrhumble1]

I already have the tail rod on my list of things to modify. I don't think it caused my crash, but it will probably help my tail performance.

As for who recommended my throttle curves, see the end of this thread --> http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=88566

Everything seems to balance well.

I am pretty sure this was caused by interference of some kind. I'll re-think my component location after I get my receivers back from Horizon. I still need another ESC and have no idea when I'll be able to afford one. I'll email Align and hopefully they will repair mine at a reduced price.

How about gears? Should I stick with stock or switch them out??

Jason

[mjdee14]

I saw only one person say use 100%, others were saying 80% , 90%....you said you were not going to buy anything but a 50t ist gear is only $3.95....and might be well worth it...

I also had good luck with the Gaui esc running in gov mode and at 85% Tc...ran real smooth.

I'm running a Z30 with 13t pin, 50t, 20, 61 it say I should be at 1978 rpms @95% use the hobby world calculator...downloaded it and put on your desktop...it's the best one and you can se exactly what you will be running....most use 90-95% efficiency.

My other ship I run Z20 980kv...14, 42,20,61t set up...that shows 2259rpms but my Eagle tree shows more like 2000...

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=71718&highlight=hobbyworld

[Pinecone]

1) I agree with the Rx placement. Too close to the motor can induce noise directly into the servo wires. Rx should go at the back of the heli.

2) If your headspeed is too high, change the gearing. And 85 - 90% at mid stick is fine, with a V curve to 100% at the ends. IIRC you were trying to run 65 - 75 mid-stick with 85 - 90 at the ends, and that is a recipe for a toasted ESC.

[Drew816]

snip!

2) If your headspeed is too high, change the gearing. And 85 - 90% at mid stick is fine, with a V curve to 100% at the ends. IIRC you were trying to run 65 - 75 mid-stick with 85 - 90 at the ends, and that is a recipe for a toasted ESC.

And if it's an Align product it might burst into flames even with 88% at mid-stick! ;) :P ;)

Yeah, sounds like you had a few things contributing here; take two Advil, follow the crew's advice above, rebuild and try it all again. I personally run only a little Expo on my Gaui; it's a bit twitchy without it but I didn't know what it was or how to program it until a few weeks ago and it has made a difference for the better for sure...

I personally run a Castle BEC but some folks have had troubles with them, if you're going with a true BEC solution maybe try the Sport instead. No extra batteries on board for me thanks (but that's a personal choice of course). I'm STILL waiting for my replacement Castle 80 ESC to arrive after my Align 75 flambe'd my Gaui 1.5 weeks ago and I'm looking forward to getting her back in the air.

Good luck!

[mrhumble1]

Thank you very much for the link to the HS Calculator. That is a very valuable tool and will help a lot when I decide to upgrade my power system.

I am glad most of you agree my receiver placement was incorrect. The most important thing to get out of this thread is WHY it crashed so I can fix the problem. That it was my fault doesn't matter since everybody screws up sometime. It just sucks that the lesson learned is going to be expensive.

It looks like I am just going to have to do a big upgrade over the winter. I need a new ESC (which one, who knows), and I WANT a new motor (leaning toward the Z30). Plus I ruined a battery pack and need to replace it. I can probably scrape together enough to fix my Trex 500 before the end of the season but even then I'll only have 2 packs. What a bummer.

Thanks again guys for all your help!!

Jason

[Mikej]

Jason,

I wouldn't discount a problem with the Rx either, it's always very tempting to keep using a component if you think that it might be "iffy" as they cost so much but Drew's resetting ESC and your "suspect" Rx have re-itterated to me that with these things it's worth playing on the side of caution as it is so annoying and expensive when things go wrong.

Hope you are able to get it sorted soon.

Mike.

[Pinecone]

If you suspect the Rx, send it to Horizon for a checkup. They have been very good about warranty work.

I am dialing down the expo on my H550 as it seems a bit sluggish. But I am running the stock 890, with 14/42/20/61 gearing, woodies and stock flybar and paddles. So time to start tweaking things up. I have a Scorpion 3026-1400 coming to start. Plus some Trex flybars.

[Wildcat9]

If you're upgrading the ESC, don't think you can go wrong with an 80 amp Kontronik Jazz or Jive. A few more dollars up front, but well spent in the end. I think most will agree.

[Drew816]

If you're upgrading the ESC, don't think you can go wrong with an 80 amp Kontronik Jazz or Jive. A few more dollars up front, but well spent in the end. I think most will agree.

Yeah, the $94 I spent on my Align 75 amp ESC got me 63 flights and a flambe'd and toasted Gaui 550. I was lucky I was on the ground when it went up or the damage might have been a lot worse! And the Castle 80 ESC I have on order was exactly $101 shipped; that $7 difference has been eaten up in multiples at this stage; DUH!

Jazz or Castle for your ESC for sure, save up and do it right or you'll be regretting your decision later let me TELL YOU! I've not flown for almost two weeks now still waiting on parts to rebuild after the fire...

[Wildcat9]

Yes...or Castle made by the good folks in Kansas! :YeaBaby:

[mrhumble1]

I think I am going to have to just fix my Trex 500 and shelve my Hurri 550 until next season. I am just not going to be able to afford to fix it right now. It's the ESC that really did it. If I could just buy parts then I'd be ok, but another $100 (at least, that's if I get a CC ESC) on top of that is just too much, especially when I really want to swap the motor, gears, and blades (switch to 550s) out too.

I am just going to save up and do it right. No more of that Gaui motor to worry about. I just lost one battery due to crash, I don't want to lose another one because the motor ruined it. I'll just do the research and start off next season with a newly set up Hurri.

Thanks again for all your help guys.

Jason

[xodarap1]

A failed Castle BEC nearly cost me my CF hurri. I was lucky to catch the failing Castle part on the ground before the next flight.

Although RX packs are more inconvenient, none of my RX battery packs have ever failed me. I don't forget to check the voltage on the gyro's display before I fly 'em and I don't mind taking the 3 seconds to plug in an RX pack while I charge the main packs.

I won't be sending any more $ to Castle or Align for their products. If/when my Align 75A ESC fails, that will be history because I'm going to replace it with another HobbyWing or another brand. I know HobbyWings don't have the highest rating and we all have different luck with components, but I have a lot of miles on them and I fly everyday it isn't raining.

[mrhumble1]

the Castle 80 ESC I have on order was exactly $101 shipped; that $7 difference has been eaten up in multiples at this stage; DUH!

Jazz or Castle for your ESC for sure, save up and do it right or you'll be regretting your decision later let me TELL YOU! I've not flown for almost two weeks now still waiting on parts to rebuild after the fire...

Hey Drew-

Where did you find the CC ESC for $101??

Jason

[Drew816]

Hey Drew-

Where did you find the CC ESC for $101??

Jason

Flea-Bay, where else! ;) I saw another new one sell for $91+ shipping yesterday; they're out there you just have to be patient and look.

Mine arrived today, I'll be configuring it tomorrow, rebuilding DS821's, etc, etc. I hope to get to fly at SOME point this week.

Good luck with your rebuild and hang tough!

[mrhumble1]

Speaking of eBay, what the hell is this ----> http://cgi.ebay.com/80A-Brushless-Motor-Speed-Controller-RC-ESC-Parts-T_W0QQitemZ270265758670QQihZ017QQcategoryZ34056QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Somebody please try this.

Jason

[rotorhead58d]

it's a mystery:rolling

sounds too good to be true, and you know what they say...

[mrhumble1]

Well, I have heard of Pentium ESCs before. I found a few at other online retailers (http://www.cnchelicopter.com/servlet/the-1221/HobbyWing-Pentium-dsh-80A-Brushless-ESC/Detail).

Also, it never hurts to ask. Who knows, it might be good. For $69, that would be a good deal.


Jason