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View Full Version : GET RID OF THE WOOFS ON THE RAPTOR V1 30 AND 50 HEADS CHEAP


OC Bob
05-11-2004, 07:57 PM
Hi Everyone,

Here is a cheap way to fix any V1 30 or 50 head for certain. This fix will make your V1 head as good as a V2 head. In some cases it will even work out better then the V2 head is. And it only costs about 30 cents, and takes about 1 hour to do. You will probably have what you need to do this fix in your parts draw as well.

Put two thin washers against the dampers, between the dampers and the barrels. The barrels I refer to are the ones that ride on the back blade grip bearings in each grip. Put one thin washer on each side of the spindle. Tighten the spindle nuts after the washers are in place, and the last two or three turns of the spindle nuts should pull the whole thing tight, as you turn them down to the bottom. As you tighten the nuts down, it should tighten the whole assembly up on your V1 spindle, the last few turns of the spindle nuts. This presses the washers you added against the dampers firmly. Even with crappy dampers in the head, the dampers will now work well loaded with the washers pressed against them slightly.

If you get a little grip drag after adding the washers while sitting static on the bench, pull out on the grips hard and then feather them back and fourth. If they are now pretty free with just a slight drag when pulling out hard on them and fethering them, they will be fine in flight. The blade weight when running pulls the grips out very hard against the thrust bearings. The slight grip drag from being tight when sitting static goes completely away from the load of the blade weight when running. The blade weight load on a V1 raptor when running is what creates the blade grip play on the spindle anyway. It unloads the barrel off the damper some when it is pulling out under load while running. This play that develops while flying between the barrel and the damper is actually what causes the bad woofs in the V1's at high rotor speeds. The blade dynamic weight gets heavier the faster the rotor speeds are turned. And the play increases between the barrel and the damper from this issue.

If you want a complete fix which will make your V1 head as good as the head of a V2, glue the outside of the two large carrier bearings in each blade grip. This is to fill the little bit of loose space between the grip and the carrier bearing. This bearing play problem was pretty well fixed in the V2 blade grip. This is what the metal blade grip upgrades primarily do on the V1 heads. Also metal grips don't streach a little like the plastic ones do when running. So the play between the barrel and the damper doesn't change when running the rotor at fast speeds. Use slow CA glue to glue the outside of the bearings in the plastic V1 grips. When doing this don't get the CA in the bearings. A thin coat of CA goes between the outside race of the two big bearings, and the grip itself. This is just to fill any of the space between them, and to eliminate the little bit of play between them. If you do this correctly it make the bearing and plastic grip as tight as metal ones fit around the bearings, or as tight as a V2 grip and bearing assembly is. Then if you add two washers against the dampers, one on each side the spindle the right width, your V1 head will perform exactly like a V2 head. If you get the fix done exactly right, the V1 head will perform better then some of the V2 heads, in many instances.

You can try a blade grip flip, but that works hit or miss. Here is why. When you flip the grips what actually happens is this. The plastic molding of the blade grips are a little different when rotated and run 180 degrees reversed then when run normally with the pitch link in trail. When you reverse the grips to leading, you rotate the grips 180 degrees. The wear in the plastic grips caused by flying from the bearing loads is now shifted in the grip. To an entierly new spot in the grip which is not worn from running yet. This usually tightens up the grips, just enough again on the bearings while running against the dampers, to eliminate enough spindle play to stop the woofs at moderate to high rotor speeds. Usually the woofs will start again, or may never stop at all with the flip, if you had a real loose V1 spindle assembly on your V1 head from the start. This is why the blades will stop woofing sometimes when you flip the grips on some V1's. Other times it won't stop the woofs at all because the system was too loose from the start. In many cases even with the grip flip, the blades will continue to woof anyway. This is because the system won't get tight when the flip is done. Again, simply because your specific V1 head system was too lose to begin with anyway. I also have to add this item. A set of blades with bad CG will amplify the woof trouble. Most rotor blade CG trouble is caused by the placement of the blade mounting bolt hole, at the end of the rotor blade. A little off, just a little, and the blade runs out of true center of pressure. There is a specific blade MFG. which sells a lot of rotor blades. In many of there blade sets they have the mounting hole off just a little bit. These blades will typically woof badly on a V1 at high rotor speeds. This head fix will eliminate the CG mounting hole trouble these make of rotor blades have as well.

Glue the outer races of the carrier bearings in the grips with slow CA lightly. This is to fill the play between the bearing and the plastic grip. An easy way to do this is to use an old spindle. Assemble the bearings in the proper order on the old spindle. Apply the glue to the outer races of the big carrier bearings now, and then pull them into the grip in the right order, in one fast pull. Now install the two phillips bearing retaining screws and you are done. Let the glue dry for about 15 minutes. Then find a set of washers that fit over the spindle and seat well against the dampers. Put them in place and then put the grips back on. Tighten the spindle nuts down now and this will make the entire assembly tight, as you tighten the spindle nuts the last few turns.

Again, if you end up with a awful lot of grip drag, as you feather the each grip static with no load while sitting on the bench, the washers you used are probably a little too wide. There should be just a little grip drag once you are done at each blade grip when feathered. This assures you that the spindle barrel is firmly aginst the washer, and the washer is firmly against the damper. Then if you pull out hard on the grips and feather them, they should only have a little drag. If so it is now set correctly. When flying the grips will load against the thrust bearings and run perfectly. If you glued the bearings in the grips right, and have the right thickness of washers against the dampers on the spindle, it will never woof again. Even at very high rotor speeds. And now your V1 30 and 50 heads will fly exactly like the V2 heads. You won't be able to tell any difference at all between the two helicopter heads.

If the blade grip flip was really the cure all for the problem, there would never have been a V2 head introduced to replace the V1 head. This washer process also works for some of the V2 heads. Ones which have a little play between the damper and barrel from the factory. The grips on a V2 head make the bearings tight in the grips, and has essentually fixed that trouble the V1 has. However once in a while the V2 systems are not loaded enough against the dampers to eliminate all the spindle damper play. If a V2 head has a little to much spindle play from the factory, you must use only very thin plastic blade washers. Ones that will fill just the little bit of spindle play some V2's have out of the box. They are not all completely perfect either, but are much better then the V1's heads out of the box. If you have a V2 that woofs a little here and there, a very thin set of plastic blade washers will tighten it up, and stop any woofs it may have as well. If you get the V2 spindle damper loads a little to tight with the washers, the helicopter will shuffel with cyclic inputs a bit. You just want to tighten the V2's that are loose up slightly, if you were unlucky enough to get one with a head a little loose from the factory.

Additionally if you do this fix you don't need to flip the blade grips to leading. This will allow the geometry of the mixers in the head to work as it was suppose to from the start. The helicopter collective and cyclic, along with clearence of the links stays the same and nothing changes. Except you get rid of the woofs, and the old V1 helicopter heads come alive and responds cleanly to cyclic control now. You will feel and see the difference instantly.

OC Bob

ImRich
05-11-2004, 10:10 PM
Hi Bob,

A nice post! Why not move it to the Raptor (TT) section.

Also, can you add some descriptive details as to some approximate washer thicknesses in each application? Sometimes people may start much too thick or thin and not know if they are even close. I'd appreciate knowing what you consider as 'thick' or 'thin' in each application.

OC Bob
05-12-2004, 02:51 AM
Many of the V1's head slop are a little different, to a lot. If the dampers are a little weak as well, and the barrels are barely against the damper, as you approach about 1750 on the rotor RPM some of the helicopters woof real bad. Some woof bad enough to crack ball links in flight, and cause a crash. That is why some V1 Raptors woof worse then others. On the surface the heads look to be the same, but in reality they will vary here and there quite a bit. The largest washer for thickness I have ever seen used on one is like what is in the later raptor 60 head spindles. That would be the largest however, and they are rarely used when this thick. Usually the washer needed ends up being about half the thickness of the one in the 60 head on the spindle against the damper. You can start with any real thin washer, one on each side the same thickness. Even very thin washers are usually a huge improvement on a V1 Rator head, simply because the stock Raptor V1 head systems are so loose to begin with. This fix is like making each barrel that goes against the dampers a little longer. However, it is better solution because the washer is wider, and it distributes the load better to the dampers. And it is easier then making two new barrels. The barrels now go against the washers, and the washers go against the dampers. If you are having any trouble starting the nuts onto the spindle after adding the washers, either your bearings did not bottom in the grips as you pulled them in after gluing the bearings. Or the washer you used on each side of the spindle was too thick. The spindle nuts should start back on the spindle pretty easy. After you tighten the spindle nuts completely, feather the balde grips while pulling out hard on them. If they drag just a little bit above the normal feather feel, you are fine.

American size washers will work fine on the spindle as well. They are a little loose on the spindle, but because of the compression they don't move around. Additionally, if the fix is done with the correct size washer after a few flights, the dampers sort of mold to them a little. The trick is to find two identical washers that go over the spindle fairly well, then tighten the spindle nuts all the way down, and then check the feathering as I describe. If the assembly is very tight once the spindle nuts are bottomed out, and the grips have a lot of drag still while pulling out on them, the washers are a bit to thick. When you are done the grips should have a very little drag when pulling out hard on them, while feathering them. A little bit of drag is fine, and in most cases is perfect. A large amount of very noticible drag is too much.

Also, when you glue the bearings be sure to pull the whole assembly of bearings back into each grip after the CA glue is applied quickly. This is to assure the back bearing bottoms out in each blade grip. If they stop short of the back of the blade grip, in either grip, you won't get a good feel for the right size washer to use on both sides on the spindle against the dampers. As soon as you start spooling the helicopter up, if the bearings did not bottom in the grip, they will as you spool up from the blade weight. Just be certain to use slow CA. Then once the bearings outer case has a light coat of slow CA on both big bearings, pull the whole assembly back in order quickly with an old spindle. Additionally, lube the spindle you are using in the helicopter head before you put it in the dampers. It will now slide easy when installing the grips back on to it. This will center the spindle real well as you tighten both spindle nuts, by letting it slip easy in the head dampers. I usually tighten both spindle nuts, then turn one nut on one end of the spindle to rotate the spindle in the dampers. This centers you new tight assembly very well.

The only thing you now have to pay attention to when you go fly is blade tracking. You now have a very tight capable V1 head assembly, so the blades must track well. Short links on the blade grips for big tracking adjustments, and the long links to the swashplate from the flybar mixers for very fine blade tracking adjustments. Once it is tracked well, and the blades find center and the spindle centers, all the shake will disapear. And now you will have a woof free hot rod. If you run about 1900 to 1950 on the rotor speed watch that helicopter go 3D. And yet it will be very stable in a hover. Use the stock flybar paddles supplied with the Raptor, once the head fix is done. And a fair amount of cyclic. I tell everyone to start on the closest in servo holes, on the elevator and aileron. Then set 100 and 100 EPA's on both channels, add 30 expo to both channels, and start setting it up from there. If you go out another hole on the servo arms for more swashplate movement, reduce the EPA's on the elevator and aileron to about 85 and 85. Then add about 40 expo to both cyclic channels to start hover tests, and go from there.

If the blade grip bearings were glued and pulled in correctly, and the right thickness washer was used on the spindle against the damper on each side, you won't believe it is the same helicopter. With a 50 OS engine, a governor, and a decent set of rotor blades on it now, you won't even believe it is a V1 Thunder Tiger Raptor anymore.

OC Bob

WillJames
05-12-2004, 06:01 AM
Thanks for the post Bob! I will move it to the TT section, but leave a shadow for it here where you originally posted it. That way people can get there either way.

Thanks for contributing!!! :D This is very good information!!

Laurens
05-12-2004, 09:54 AM
Very interesting.

Warlock1
06-21-2004, 06:05 PM
My 30 is a perfect canidate for this, going try this out tonight :!: thanks for the info Bob.

Dave

motorman
06-22-2004, 09:42 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new to heli's and to the forum, I'm not even sure what a woof is! When hovering my heli as I gain experience I have slowly raised my head speed. Now occasionally if I bounce up or down suddenly while hovering or make a sudden move (as in avoiding a crash) it will make a big whooshing sound and it look as if the blades go out of track. Is this a "woof". I replaced the main rotor hub and it seems better but will still do it sometimes. Should the dampers be lubed? I did not lube these when I replaced the hub. I am using century wood blades, balance seems good. Should I try the washer deal? If so does the washer actually mount next ot the damper? I'm not sure what the reference to the barrel means.

Thanks,

Julian

Matthew
06-22-2004, 09:51 PM
Julian,

Is this a V1 Or V2 your talking about. Either way yes the washer goes next to the damner. The V2 has them and the V1 doesn't. What your hearing I don't think is a woof though. I think it is just the blades making the sound they make. As far as the lube goes it is a good idea to lube them up when you put them back together. I never did on my R30 but on my 60 I do. Also post this in its own topic to get some more help. Some people that might want to help might not look in thes topic. Just copy and past in it's own topic. Hope this helps a little.

Matthew