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Old 04-25-2012, 08:17 PM   #1
KidHeli
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Question Guessing I need to update my miniV

Really would appreciate you insight here. Been trying to get my tail locked in on hard pitch pumps and climb outs but it's as if the gyro can't keep up with the rapid changes in pitch. I have spent the past couple of days playing with the tail gain and I can almost get it to stop kicking on piro's but dial in about 58% gain on the TX. The tail will still stall on the pitch pumps and climb outs but it is no where near as dramatic.

So do I really need to upgrade from express to pro? I don't mind the money aspect but have to admit if I don't have to then I don't want to but I keep reading about pre comp and TBH I don't have a firm concept of how it works or where to begin to set it up.

Thanks for the input guys and I do have my ProgDisc in case there is a setting in the motor I need to tune.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:49 PM   #2
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The solution is in your own words
Quote:
The tail will still stall on the pitch pumps and climb outs but it is no where near as dramatic
People tend to set the tail to full mechanical travel, the electronics then use this travel to it's fullest, not knowing that the tail blades have physically stalled. If you set the tail pitch travel to about 8 deg for left and 13 degrees for right rudder deflection, assuming you have a CW rotating main rotor, then you will get better results. PRO software is nice to have to set all the finer points, BUT will not overcome a bad mechanical setup.

The VBar has one of the best tail performances out there, just have to give it the mechanics to work with.

What HS and size of tail blades are you using?
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:13 AM   #3
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I've set max tail travel on all my helis, never had a tail stall problem, ever, piro flying is my first love so I would know when a tail stalls, your problem is tail torque precompensation, pro should help, but on very powerful motors its a difficult thing to control since the system can only counter the forces once it exists, sometimes softening gov helps.
I'd recommend going pro, st least you gain other functions as well, on pitch pumps a tail won't stall as the heli would counter long before that happens,
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:40 AM   #4
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I am running ~1450 HS and the tail blades are Jan's. I pulled out my Edge tail blades last night and swapped them out, the Edge have a wider chord but are the same length. This may help or not.

The other thing I noticed is that on a CW piro I can get the tail to stop with very minimal bounce back but on a CCW piro it bounces no matter what the gain is set to even 100% in the TX

Running the Pyro BE and DX8

Vinger, is there a certain pitch gauge you use for the tail blades?
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:01 AM   #5
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That low of headspeed will indeed play havoc on the tails. Something I would suggest with that HS would be 690's with 110's or something. My thinking is to lower the disk loading and increase tail authority. Also, here's a quick low-down on pre-comp so you understand what you'd be buying...

Every signal your tx sends to your bird goes into vbar. When you do something sudden like 'full pitch' the vbar sees this command. The algorithm knows that when a large pitch (or other similar command) is given it should expect a head load that will affect the tail. The algorithm checks its settings and checks the "pre-comp" setting when using Pro. This is adjustable in the Pro version. Ultimately the vbar KNOWS to expect a tail issue so commands the tail to compensate for that expected load. So your tail is fixing the problem that hasn't yet started (but will in a few milliseconds). THAT is the "precompensation" slider you hear folks talk about. You can adjust how much it compensates that expected reaction. So when you see what it does in the air, you move the slider and try it again. Once that's done so are you and it's back to flying again.

So in the end, your command to give full pitch ends up being full pitch and a small percentage of tail to account for the torque it is about to experience. So you told it to move three servos but vbar saw the need and moved four instead. How much it compensates is completely adjustable to match your setup.

Now in a vbar gov situation the same thing happens. Full pitch commands wreck havoc on the tail that is established. The gov pre-comp works the same way. When full pitch is applied the vbar KNOWS to expect both a tail kick AND for the motor to bog. So in addition to the 3 servos going full pitch like you asked it to it will also ramp the motor and compensate the tail all while giving you that pitch you asked for. The result is a softer hit, more consistent headspeed and no tail kick. So it looks like you're a 3D master but the vbar is doing most of those little corrections you never really thought about before. Makes setting up the system to YOUR bird fairly easy and the best it can be on YOUR bird. Every bird will need different things but they all work based on the same principles.

Hope that made some silly sense on about half a cup of caffiene.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:39 AM   #6
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I believe that "uneven stops" are caused by too high tail pitch advance in neutral point, which is there if you assemble it as manual says.
It is 8-9 deg and the Vbar help says you should have i think 2-3 deg.
I spent lot of time with that and at the end i given up, without curing it completely.
What helps is mechanical adjust to lower advance, playing with the Stop gains (i think lowering the B stop, not sure now) and raising collective precomp up to 40-45.

My next build will be with 0 pitch advance in servo neutral position and with even higher precomp.
On my current TDR, i was tired trying to fix it, so i live with it, i can see it only when swinging the tail in hover from side to side.
When i was googling this issue, i found 2 pilots having this problem on Logo 600...
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:44 AM   #7
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That does help me make sense but how do you find a starting point with the settings. I just d/l'd the latest desktop s/w and it defaults to the Pro version when you open it up. I see the different settings like Acceleration, P Gain, I Gain, Stop Gain A/B, and then the torque settings for cyclic and collective. Is there a thread that elaborates on these?
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:01 AM   #8
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Honestly what I gave you was the accumulation of tons of reading. The only resource I've seen is Mr.Mel's setup videos but I don't think he ever got into the "why" of what vbar does. Start with his setup videos would be my guess and to keep reading. There is no "right" answer with a FBL setup. It's all about setting it up to YOUR bird. But many of us can help you weed through all it can do. Finding one guy that has already said it all...not sure on that one brother, sorry.

The best starting point is stock. Fly it and see what it does. Adjust what your bird needs from there. We can get you in the ballpark but only your bird can finalize what it really needs.

Keep asking questions though, we're here for ya!
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:02 AM   #9
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Almost everyone is using default values and most of the stuff, including TDR, is flying well with it.
We had thread with Google spreadsheet where was settings from some of our users, search for that, there was some info about it (like raising Accel and I for the tail).
Tuning the Vbar could lead to some "strange" values; there is no description which range the values have and how they exactly influence the flying, usually everyone is happy with the default, but if you are not afraid to experiment, you might find out the value of 45 in Collective precomp is working for you best at low RPM...
But 70% of other pilots will tell you this is wrong/strange (usually because they did not tried that and never seen anyone on the web recommending that).
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:15 AM   #10
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In your current setup the first thing I would do is try the stock 20 on tail pre-comp and go up from there. What you'd be doing is put it in a hover. Now mash full collective. What direction did the tail move? If it goes to the right then it needs more pre-comp. If it goes to the left then it's compensating too much so you'd lower that value. Get it right and it'll take off like a bottle rocket with a rock solid tail position.

P & I settings are a whole new thread. But well worth the time invested in learning.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:23 AM   #11
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Sounds good guys, I don't mind experimenting at all. I'm one of those who will try and perfect it until I drive myself nuts if you know what I mean.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #12
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And knowing that is why I explained the Pro version that I know you will soon own.

To easy your mind, I have Pro on all 3 of my birds and have ZERO regrets. There's not another system I wish I had instead. That says all I need to know with my fleet. Your mileage may vary. But I doubt it.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:10 PM   #13
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No problem with tail authority stalls or whatever, even on my efp tdr at 1100 max throws, approx 5 degrees centre stick towards countering torque, but I use very high gain lots of precomp and bls 252 ,I have a set of 115 edge but 105 works well enough, People don't use the settings enough on vbar, many times they don't even turn optimizers on till the tail works well, another thing that may mess with your tail is the pitch pump setting, make that zero till you're happy with the tail, then slowly increase, same with paddle sim
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:24 AM   #14
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I agree, at a guess probably over 90% of people dont even play with many settings in pro.

Most dont want to know and leave it as it flies good enough, for me i want perfection!
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:20 AM   #15
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100% spot with perfection.... just grabbed the Pro update and it was smooth Charging the batts this morning and gonna give it a test drive around lunch time.

One thing that has been on my mind since yesterday is that if you follow the tail set up per Jan then why would you get tail stalls on pitch pumps? Why wouldn't the manual make reccomendations on how to set up some mechanical precomp or suggest pitch values for either direction? IDK just thinking out loud really....
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:39 AM   #16
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Can someone post a link or explain how to do precomp on v-bar .. I still don't know:0(
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:56 AM   #17
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Kevin did you see post #5? If so and you still don't let us know, I have better understanding from that post and been searching the VBar forum as well.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:52 PM   #18
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Well gotta say I regret not updating sooner, but I tell you the fine tuning settings in the Pro version are really nice. I thought I enjoyed my BX but after doing some tuning using my BT dongle I have to say that I enjoy the VBar tuning more even if you have a few more dollars tied up in it. Something about being able to have a similar PC experience on your Android phone makes things nice plus I have to admit I don't like messing with the gain pots on the BX.

I ended up getting some weird settings though on the precomp and tail gain after the update, precomp was 100 and tail gain was 120 so I brought the heli back home and started with a blank slate and found that my tail was not as mechanically correct as I thought it was which could have been part of the issue. Now I have it perfectly centered with 100/100 on each throw w/o binding. Hopefully tomorrow will bring better results.

+1 to Pro version
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Old 04-28-2012, 10:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbj1 View Post
Can someone post a link or explain how to do precomp on v-bar .. I still don't know:0(
Hi Kevin, here a simple step by step.

Open the V-bar software on your PC
Connect your V-bar via the supplied USB cable to the PC.
Power up the V-bar.
In the PC software go to the "Tail rotor" section in the middle and click on the blue doctor's hat.
There you see "Torque precomp.
You can change the precomp values for the collective and cyclic separately.
Maybe start with 20 for the collective and 10 for the cyclic.
Every time you change a number you have to hit "Enter"

That's it.
Have fun!
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Old 04-28-2012, 03:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHeli View Post
+1 to Pro version
yeah, I thought of not getting the Pro because I thought it would be difficult to setup but it was exactly the same just that you have more to play with IF you want I didn't do anything on my first V, it flew better than BeastX anyway precomp are set as default on vbar, on BeastX you have to set it manually. Both are nice but now I like vbar more, the governor in Pro is fantastic also.
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