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Old 05-03-2012, 09:54 AM   #1
haha
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Default cannot do funnel

So I am trying to learn how to do tail down funnel but I can not get it and it's really frustrating. I watched this video but it doesnt seem to help:
how do you guys do it?
you;re trying to keep the tail toward the ground right? and bank the heli with left and right cyclic?
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #2
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An easy way to get into one (upright nose down) is do a few right hand circuits.. kindof fast and steep... and at one point quickly rudder the nose right so it is pointing to the center of your circuit.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:24 PM   #3
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In a funnel elevator controls bank angle, so only needed for corrections if tail is kept at 90°, and aileron does what elevator would do in a normal banked turn. For a counter clockwise, upright, tail down funnel like in the video it's right aileron and left rudder.

I agree with Slyster that starting a hurricane then over-piro into a funnel, so forward into nose down, backwards into tail down, is a good way to start it.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:52 PM   #4
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i do a right hand turn, than i drop the tail down, that is how i get into them. i do them the opposite way as the guy starts doing them in the video. i can do them that way too in the sim but have never tried it on the real thing, not so good at that direction.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #5
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take a look at mine too and see if that helps any more...

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Old 05-03-2012, 01:30 PM   #6
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nothing will really help you. Watch the videos, learn the basics from it and go fire the sim, don't ask me how long, everyone has different abilities but one day it will click and you will have fun. I was extremely frustrated with these few months ago and now i do them as a piece of cake in all orientation upside and down. i look at myself and laugh why i was frustrated, it is a piece of cake!!! well, I guess every skill in life needs practice, practice and practice to perfect timing and smoothness in stick input.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #7
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Right now at my skill level, I seem to only enter from backwards flight. My brain does not make the connection yet for forward flight. It's taken me three solid weeks to get comfortable in backwards flight, and only in this last week have I been able to fly a funnel. Even then, I can't really hold altitude very well yet. Keep practicing, work hard on backwards upright circuits.


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Old 05-03-2012, 02:26 PM   #8
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It took me about 3 months to get where I can do funnels in one orientation (inverted, tail down) consistently.

First, I would say shoot for hurricanes and figure 8's in all orientations and directions. You won't believe how much this helps if you get really good at these.

The part that "clicked" for me was the rudder management in the funnel. For me, paying more attention to rudder and elevator management to keep the funnel going was the breakthrough that let finally "get it".
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:44 PM   #9
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I am good with oritentation in all direction and figure 8 . But i cant do funnel for some reason, the tail is always want to level off parallel with the ground. My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am good with oritentation in all direction and figure 8 . But i cant do funnel for some reason, the tail is always want to level off parallel with the ground. My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
My experience is that you will constant fight the tail to keep it 90 degrees. The tail will also help determine the altitude. If you let the tail lag behind, you'll fall lower to the ground and have to feed more aileron and elevator, if you lead with the tail, you'll climb a bit. The amount of altitude will also depend on the elevator management as well.

This is off the top of my head and just the "feel" I get when practicing funnels.
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am good with oritentation in all direction and figure 8 . But i cant do funnel for some reason, the tail is always want to level off parallel with the ground. My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
haha, the secret to the funnel is so simple, took me as i said months to figure out with trialls and errors, you need the tail to move exactly at the same speed as your airelon input. It is only a matter of getting the timing right between the two then all is simple you can make them uptight or wide. Start with one orientation, for me it was inverted tail down approach, once I got the timing right all other orientation followed so quickly in a matter of few hours. The first one took forever, but as I said you need to get the timing right first, look always at the tail and try to match it with the airelon as you make your circle, don't let the tail proceed or lag behind and you will be on your way buddy. If you do it right with this timing you can actually play with altitude by gowing gently up and down in the throttle/pitch input and maintain it whereever you want.
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abanihani View Post
well, I guess every skill in life needs practice, practice and practice to perfect timing and smoothness in stick input.
I can think of only *one* other skill in life that seems to fit. But it's certainly worth practicing...
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:51 PM   #13
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I can think of only *one* other skill in life that seems to fit. But it's certainly worth practicing...
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am good with oritentation in all direction and figure 8 . But i cant do funnel for some reason, the tail is always want to level off parallel with the ground. My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
Where you flying this weekend, We'll work on them.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
...My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
You will always have to "fight" the tail in any circuit. Take a close look at my video and see how I use the exact same amount of rudder and collective for nose forward, as well as backwards, and tail down and nose down funnels. They are all exactly the same thing.

In a funnel just think of one side of the canopy as the "nose" and the other side as the "tail" and you may start to understand a bit more. If it helps even imagine sticking a boom out the right side of the canopy and a large nose on the left side.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am good with oritentation in all direction and figure 8 . But i cant do funnel for some reason, the tail is always want to level off parallel with the ground. My question is, in a tail down funnel do i have to constantly fight with the tail to keep it 90 degree with the ground ?
Yes. You need continuous rudder input to keep the tail pointed straight down. If you get the whole thing balanced perfectly, with no wind... its a constant rudder input. Just hold it. BUT, in real life, theres always wind, and things get messed up one way or another, and you need to make adjustments as it goes around. Very small ones, but adjustments none the less. The steeper the bank angle, the less rudder you need.

If you tend to lose speed, you need to add a bit more collective, and lean the heli forward into the direction of rotation more. In FF thats nose down. In a funnel its leading side down. If its tending to speed up to the point where you can't control it... just the opposite. Back off the collective a bit, and raise the leading side of the disc a bit.

Personally, I like to enter them from backward flight too.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylightning View Post
i do a right hand turn, than i drop the tail down, that is how i get into them. i do them the opposite way as the guy starts doing them in the video. i can do them that way too in the sim but have never tried it on the real thing, not so good at that direction.
I start off my funnels like this on the sim and can do them all day long, tail down counterclockwise. In real life it is also east to start the funnel and I can see the heli will easily hold the funnel but after 200 degrees of rotation I bail out. Just gotta man up!
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:15 PM   #18
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ok ill give it a try this week end. Got to study for final now.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:29 PM   #19
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I too struggled with upright funnel until I figured out that I was not working the collective right. Everyone is different, but that was it for me. I had so much trouble with speed...

I still can't really do inverted. 8-)
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:22 PM   #20
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Good luck! It took me a looong time to get funnels, well, I won't say "down", but I can fairly regularly get into all four upright versions - tail-in, nose-in, cw, ccw. Read everything on the forums, and just struggle with it on the sim; it will come. I find very small stick inputs were needed. I still haven't mastered them - partly because I'm happy where I am - but I always practice a little on the sim and at the field. They're really satisfying. Also, I found that they use some juice, and you should hear my blades when I'm doing them - sounds angry!
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