Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-10-2012, 10:05 PM   #41
Redlight11
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,378
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Afton, TN
Default

I would have never guessed that the FB was superior in hover. Everyday I seem to learn something new on here..... good stuff.
__________________
Logo 600se
Redlight11 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2012, 10:36 PM   #42
stevehof
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,389
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oceanside, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlight11 View Post
I would have never guessed that the FB was superior in hover. Everyday I seem to learn something new on here..... good stuff.
You would have to qualify what is meant by 'superior'. I've never flown F3C so I have no practical experience of setting up FB to that level of efficiency. However, having flown RC heli's for a total of a bit more than 14 years my opinion is that FBL is more stable in a hover and it will reduce your learning curve for many types of maneuvers. Piro comp is just one example.

If you aren't a contest level F3C pilot with a correspondingly tunable fly bar setup there is just no way that FB is more stable or better in any technical way. The only arguments against FBL are the added electronic complexity, the start up costs and learning curves for setting it up.

I was the first at our club to adopt FBL about 2 years ago. I was alone for quite some time. I would make a guess that 70% of the ships at our field are FBL now. More telling is that I don't know of one person who went FBL who decided to go back to FB. I'm sure it has happened, just not in my experience.
__________________
Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV, Hacker Turnado 530 Edition, Rail 716, CC120, WR Sup BEC, Scorp BUG | Trex 450L, Vbar Pro, MKS 8910A+ on tail, Talon 35 | Futaba 18mz
stevehof is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 12:37 AM   #43
s0laris
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,699
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: canada
Default

I am not aware of fbl compensating for wind. I think it's simply because there are no paddles in the way for the wind to catch.
__________________
Team RotorQuest / SAB Heli Canada


**When you start to be in complete control reflexes are not a requirement.**
s0laris is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 12:54 AM   #44
Volcano
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: chicago
Default

Unenlightened. I was anti fbl based on price, and I still havent bought one based on that. But I have abird I bought used with vbar pro and I LOVE it. FBL really is all its made out to be and more. When teh price gets lower and closer to a gyro then why not? Ive probably spent over a hundred on flybars and paddles. But then I have heard a fbl is more likely to ruin a servo?
Volcano is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 12:56 AM   #45
Volcano
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: chicago
Default

I think fbl does compensate for wind, like when you hold the bird and tilt it without stick input the swash compensates.
Volcano is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 01:19 AM   #46
desertstalker
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sv flyer View Post
I think fbl does compensate for wind, like when you hold the bird and tilt it without stick input the swash compensates.
It stops the wind tipping the heli (change in attitude) but not the wind pushing it sideways if the strength changes you need to manually adjust the tilt of the heli to compensate for that.
__________________
-DX8
-MSH MiniProtos Stretched, SK720, DS95/DS95i, Hyp 4S 25C 2500mAh
-MSH Protos Stretched, Brain, Hyp DS16/BLS251, 6S 3000mAh
-Goblin 500, HC3SX, Hyp DH16/MKS980BL, Scorp 4015-1100
desertstalker is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 03:34 AM   #47
punkie
Registered Users
 
Posts: 699
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia, nsw, lismore
Default

I can't see myself going flybarless for some time yet, maybe if my quark stops working i'll re invest in flybarless. I like the flybarless head designs coming out now, and the flybarless heli i have seen flies great.

but...

there is nothing that a flybarless heli can do in terms of maneuvers that a flybarred heli cannot do, so why invest a ton of money into new parts and electronics, to end up with good parts and gyros that have very little resale value, wont do it without a good reason.

i can't justify for myself to buy fbl upgrades when the gear i have does the job, if i was out to buy and build more helis then i would.
__________________
it's a child hood fantasy type thing..

..guess i'm just a big kid

punkie is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 03:39 AM   #48
Mixmaster Pilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Nope. Here you go - fast forward to about 11:04:



and upside down even... Course, it's Bobby Watts, one of the world's best pilots, but it proves the point

FBL will do a little better with this but if you really spend some time with it a flybar can be just as stable.

LS
That is not still for long at all my 450 FBL holds a hands of hover for longer than that, my FBL 700 has something wrong in the setup if it starts to slide away like in that video.

Quote:
there is nothing that a flybarless heli can do in terms of maneuvers that a flybarred heli cannot do, so why invest a ton of money into new parts and electronics, to end up with good parts and gyros that have very little resale value, wont do it without a good reason.

i can't justify for myself to buy fbl upgrades when the gear i have does the job, if i was out to buy and build more helis then i would.
If I where you I'd not fly a FBL for a while if you want to save money FBL heli's fly like a sim heli, and a FBL heli can't do anything a FB heli cannot do, but it can do it all in one flight without needing to land. A FB heli requires you to land and change the head setup if you want a heli from crazy quick in response to super docile or something in-between.
__________________
Beam E4

Formerly owned - Compass 7HV - Blade mCP X V2 - Blade 400 FBL BeastX
Mixmaster Pilot is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 04:52 AM   #49
lucien
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: santa fe, NM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixmaster Pilot View Post
That is not still for long at all my 450 FBL holds a hands of hover for longer than that, my FBL 700 has something wrong in the setup if it starts to slide away like in that video.
Well he is upside down a few inches off the ground so give him a break lol... But honestly as has been mentioned FBL maintains attitude and not position in space, so it will eventually slide away even when positioned expertly.

Quote:

If I where you I'd not fly a FBL for a while if you want to save money FBL heli's fly like a sim heli, and a FBL heli can't do anything a FB heli cannot do, but it can do it all in one flight without needing to land. A FB heli requires you to land and change the head setup if you want a heli from crazy quick in response to super docile or something in-between.
This will always be an advantage of fly-by-wire, that's true. And if you're a NOBAR enthusiast as I am, a unit like the 750 can allow you to switch back and forth there too. If you have the 8FGS radio, you can put gain settings on a switch with one bank with gains at 0. Hit the switch and instant NOBAR....

LS
lucien is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:02 AM   #50
Mixmaster Pilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Well he is upside down a few inches off the ground so give him a break lol... But honestly as has been mentioned FBL maintains attitude and not position in space, so it will eventually slide away even when positioned expertly.
Upside down is actually more stable, no interference on the downwash.

Unlike a FB, FBL will not continue to slide away at a constantly increasing rate, it turns a dynamically unstable axis a into a dynamically stable one. That's the difference that's been discussed here. A FBL will hold it's attitude, a FB will slide away and roll over within a short space of time.

And yes I have the GY750 and an 8FGS. I fly fullscale for a living and am always flying Nobar whilst I sit in them, but I don't like the interactions on an R/C heli and prefer FBL..
__________________
Beam E4

Formerly owned - Compass 7HV - Blade mCP X V2 - Blade 400 FBL BeastX
Mixmaster Pilot is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:27 AM   #51
lucien
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: santa fe, NM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixmaster Pilot View Post
Upside down is actually more stable, no interference on the downwash.

Unlike a FB, FBL will not continue to slide away at a constantly increasing rate, it turns a dynamically unstable axis a into a dynamically stable one. That's the difference that's been discussed here. A FBL will hold it's attitude, a FB will slide away and roll over within a short space of time.

And yes I have the GY750 and an 8FGS. I fly fullscale for a living and am always flying Nobar whilst I sit in them, but I don't like the interactions on an R/C heli and prefer FBL..
Yep, I think of FBL as turning it into more like a pattern plane with neutral stability vs a trainer with positive stability. The big one I sit in while flying doesn't have a rotor on it, but it does highlight the value of things that reduce pilot workload for sure. In the big one it can be a lifesaver, literally and in r/c, especially for us old guys, it can make it moe enjoyable. But still sometimes when the wind kicks up, it can be a blast to turn the gyros off and stir the sticks...

LS
lucien is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:40 AM   #52
Mixmaster Pilot
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default

A fixed wing with a high wing is dynamically stable yes.

But no a FB heli does not have positive stability, it's dynamically unstable as I said. It's not my words, but the actual definition of it's stability in the aerodynamic theory books. It will become more and more unstable the longer you leave it. It's physically impossible for a FB heli to be anything but dynamically unstable in all but the yaw axis (which is only stable in FF once the weathervane effect starts to work).

I'm done arguing this.
__________________
Beam E4

Formerly owned - Compass 7HV - Blade mCP X V2 - Blade 400 FBL BeastX
Mixmaster Pilot is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:58 AM   #53
sarah1097
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: From Utah, transferred from u of u to u of washington
Default

However the start of this thread is not is fbl better then fb or is fb better then fbl! The OP was simply asking why a person picks either option a or b and why. The last two pages have been nothing but posts of which is better. Regardless of what reasons any body has it still simply comes down to personal choice. If the person likes fbl great, and then why do you like it. If a person like fb then great why do they like it etc. No matter how it is twisted, viewed etc, it is still the same thing as comparing a vehicle that has a manual stick or an auto transmission. Just have fun with what you have and go fly sheesh silly guys.
sarah1097 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 06:21 AM   #54
CAP21
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,018
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: new york
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah1097 View Post
However the start of this thread is not is fbl better then fb or is fb better then fbl! The OP was simply asking why a person picks either option a or b and why. The last two pages have been nothing but posts of which is better. Regardless of what reasons any body has it still simply comes down to personal choice. If the person likes fbl great, and then why do you like it. If a person like fb then great why do they like it etc. No matter how it is twisted, viewed etc, it is still the same thing as comparing a vehicle that has a manual stick or an auto transmission. Just have fun with what you have and go fly sheesh silly guys.

But the last couple pages are informational nevertheless. People expressing their opinions with some pretty good points..

Keep them coming...
__________________
...

Sit back, relax, and smell the Nitro...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

CAP21 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 08:05 AM   #55
Train Fixer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 358
 

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westchester County, NY
Default

I've said this before and I'll say it again.
FB vs FBL, it's just like why some guys like fat chicks.
Train Fixer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 08:08 AM   #56
s0laris
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,699
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: canada
Default

i fly fbl because i like the faster cyclic and the extra 10-20% flight times per pack
__________________
Team RotorQuest / SAB Heli Canada


**When you start to be in complete control reflexes are not a requirement.**
s0laris is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 08:41 AM   #57
bravedave
Registered Users
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
Default

Keep arguing guys, I'm learning a lot....
__________________
Protos 500 FB (x2), HK450 Pro V2 TT FBL w ZYX, Blade MSR.
bravedave is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 09:08 AM   #58
lucien
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: santa fe, NM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah1097 View Post
However the start of this thread is not is fbl better then fb or is fb better then fbl! The OP was simply asking why a person picks either option a or b and why. The last two pages have been nothing but posts of which is better. Regardless of what reasons any body has it still simply comes down to personal choice. If the person likes fbl great, and then why do you like it. If a person like fb then great why do they like it etc. No matter how it is twisted, viewed etc, it is still the same thing as comparing a vehicle that has a manual stick or an auto transmission. Just have fun with what you have and go fly sheesh silly guys.
In fact, I am fixing to go fly my 700E, I'm trying out the new 470KV motor I put in it yesterday. I'm hoping I can run a little higher throttle settings at my low rotor speeds with it than with the 510KV I took out. Hoping the governor works better and it's a little easier on the ESC.

I won't say if it's a flybar or FBL, just an electric lol..

LS
lucien is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 09:11 AM   #59
lucien
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: santa fe, NM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravedave View Post
Keep arguing guys, I'm learning a lot....
Nope, not me. Mixmaster's last point is right and mine was wrong, so I have nothing more to argue.

That said, it's tough for me to say now which I really truly prefer. Flybar and FBL have their own advantages and fun to them. I've come back around on FBL lately even tho I'm still an old flybar shellback.

LS
lucien is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 09:28 AM   #60
Desolas
Registered Users
 
Posts: 311
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAP21 View Post
Okay, it's no question that FBL is the way to go now. There are just more FBL than FB.

Question is why would anyone go FB?

For me, I'm no techie and could barely set up a FB machine so I'll stick to it and fly.

I'd like to know why others would stick to FB.

Again, this is not which is better. To each his own...
One thing I didn't really see anyone mention is with a fly bar setup your response is a little more immediate. Since your servos are a mechanical connection to the head the slightest and fastest input is more directly translated to the swash plate with less latency. You do not have to "wait" for the computer to translate your input, process, and send it on to the servos.

However, for the majority of us that means nothing. The speed in which it all happens is still insanely fast. For some who are flying hard and close to the ground that makes them prefer the feel of having mechanical fly bar.

Even as flybarless systems evolve further people will still prefer one over the other, it's a personal preference thing. I notice how they fly different, but am in love with the inherent stability of my new flybarless machines.

My personal reasons for going flybarless:

• Ease of setup, it's simple head design makes repair and setup faster.
• Cleaner setup, it just looks boss.
• Flies great. I love how it flies, all across the board. I can do more with it.

Why someone may stick with a flybar:

• Keeping it simple, converting is time and money.
• They don't like how "computerized" feeling FBL feels.
• They demand the fastest possible cyclic response with as close to zero latency as you can get. You'll see this with hard smack pilots like Tareq.
• It's cheaper! Now that everyone is moving to FBL you can get a GY520 stupid cheap and the parts are inexpensive.
__________________
(Professional Hobbyist.)
Desolas is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com