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Old 05-09-2012, 06:44 AM   #1
Shtumpa
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Default Newbie help setup gyro's pretty please :-)

Howdy all,


I have some question about getting the bird dialled in correctly

First let me say i have had the T-rex 500 for about 2 months, This is my FIRST heli, It was FB but i converted it to FBL with a DFC head, After doing a lot of research i decided to go for the helicommand unit "HC3SX" :-) The rescue mode was what sold me, I did not understand the full potential of the unit until after i set it up.

the unit was a bugger to setup mainly because i did not understand all the terminology used, but hey i got there in the end :-) It's seems to hover nice and it's stable in the air while doing circuits, i can even let go of the sticks in rigid mode and it holds heading and altitude and goes in a straight line until i put in stick inputs. Oh and i run an ice75 in Gov mode J

So ... I have been into helis for only 4 months, started off with a MCPX, but i don’t consider that a real heli, still it's a good thing to learn the basics on. With saying that i understand very little about FBL units, So I’m only just learning about it.


First Question is:
Head Gyro:

I set this in the rigid tab under "Head gyro default gain" how do i tell when i have reached maximum gain ? At the moment it's set to 45, and the thing seems to be stable, but if i flick into Horizon mode i get tail bounce, i also get this tail bounce in rigid mode if i set it to 50..

So is 45 the correct setting in rigid and if so then why do i get bounce in Horizon mode ?

Am i setting it up wrong? What’s the correct procedure for this, or do i leave the tail bounce there and filter it out with another setting ?

Next Question:
Tail Gyro

At the moment i have the servo horn set dead on 90 degress and the rod length is correct, i have set the Servo travel limitation to 58 for left and right directions and this JUST stops the binding in both direction, Tail servo is a Futaba S9257.. So i assume the mechanical setup of the tail is correct, at mid stick the blades are dead level, like zero pitch if you will, but i also read that i should have them offset to pos to compensate for the direction / force from the tail thrust..

The tail gyro is set to 50 in the software, but in the tx I have a 3 way switch that goes from position 0,1,2, settings in the tx are , 0 = 60%, 1=%69, 2 = 75 % , when flicking the Gyro positions in flight in idel up 1 it does not seem to effect the tail, the tail seems ok with the above head and tail settings, so have i got it correct ?, should it i not see a change from position 0 to position 2 in the when flicking the switch for the TX gyro settings

Also i assume the TX gyro 3 switch's setting only effect the tail gyro ?
i don’t understand how to set up the tail correctly to make sure i have MAX gain, also i have read that I’m supposed to setup the tail in something called RATE mode ??

Can someone please explain the correct procedure step by set for setting up the head gain and tail gain with the helicommand

I really need some help in simple terminology for the steps to correctly setup the head and tail gyros, as i don’t quite understand what I’m doing, what controls what to look for and what to be careful off when doing it all..

Many Thanks for your time

Mark
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:04 AM   #2
DEMONjoe
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
First Question is: Head Gyro:
I set this in the rigid tab under "Head gyro default gain" how do i tell when i have reached maximum gain ? At the moment it's set to 45, and the thing seems to be stable, but if i flick into Horizon mode i get tail bounce, i also get this tail bounce in rigid mode if i set it to 50.
So is 45 the correct setting in rigid and if so then why do i get bounce in Horizon mode ?
First we have to seperate between head and tail gyro gain. They do not really affect each other.
Head gyro gain is either set up in the software by using the slider you mentioned. But only if there is no signal on the unit's head gyro channel when used in Rigid mode. Or you use this head gyro channel which is much more convenient as you can adjust the gain in flight. If sending a signal to that channel, the internal slider is not valid!
The head gain needs to be set to a value so you do not get bounces on the head when stopping control inputs, and the heli should have no tendencies for ballooning up in fast forward flight.

The other channel is the tail gyro channel. Here you set the tail gain for a solid locked in tail, or however you want it to behave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
Next Question: Tail Gyro
At the moment i have the servo horn set dead on 90 degress and the rod length is correct, i have set the Servo travel limitation to 58 for left and right directions and this JUST stops the binding in both direction, Tail servo is a Futaba S9257.. So i assume the mechanical setup of the tail is correct, at mid stick the blades are dead level, like zero pitch if you will, but i also read that i should have them offset to pos to compensate for the direction / force from the tail thrust.
That is very low, you loose a lot of control dissolution here. Use a hole one more to the center in the servo horn and try to increase these values.
Having identical values for left and right is perfect already, so your mechanics is symmetrial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
The tail gyro is set to 50 in the software, but in the tx I have a 3 way switch that goes from position 0,1,2, settings in the tx are , 0 = 60%, 1=%69, 2 = 75 % , when flicking the Gyro positions in flight in idel up 1 it does not seem to effect the tail, the tail seems ok with the above head and tail settings, so have i got it correct ?, should it i not see a change from position 0 to position 2 in the when flicking the switch for the TX gyro settings
If your tail hold well, all is fine. That is up to your feelings, more or less. Noone can tell about the values being the best for your heli. You need to fly this to know.
And again: head and tail are not really affected by each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
Also i assume the TX gyro 3 switch's setting only effect the tail gyro ?
If this is programmed to the HC's tail gyro channel....yes. Simply speaking: the HC offers an input channel to control the tail gain. But it does not care at all from where this signal is coming. This needs to be programmed in the radio by you. The tail gyro channel in the radio is not automatically set to the HC's tail gyro channel !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
i donít understand how to set up the tail correctly to make sure i have MAX gain, also i have read that Iím supposed to setup the tail in something called RATE mode ??
Forget the rate mode, old stuff. Set everything in Heading-lock mode. Rate, or normal mode is only interesting when setting up the mechanics. But as the HC software supplies the unit with center signals when connected to Diagnose and Trim tab, this is not necessary any more. All this is stated in the setup wizard (assuming you hopefully used this=!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
Can someone please explain the correct procedure step by set for setting up the head gain and tail gain with the helicommand
See above. It is simply finding the max gain, so you do not get a shivering on head or tail, and the head and tail lock in well to your needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
I really need some help in simple terminology for the steps to correctly setup the head and tail gyros, as i donít quite understand what Iím doing, what controls what to look for and what to be careful off when doing it all..

Many Thanks for your time

Mark
Hope I covered some things in my texts. Let us know when you have questions.

Joachim
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:14 AM   #3
Shtumpa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
First we have to seperate between head and tail gyro gain. They do not really affect each other.
Head gyro gain is either set up in the software by using the slider you mentioned. But only if there is no signal on the unit's head gyro channel when used in Rigid mode. Or you use this head gyro channel which is much more convenient as you can adjust the gain in flight. If sending a signal to that channel, the internal slider is not valid!
The head gain needs to be set to a value so you do not get bounces on the head when stopping control inputs, and the heli should have no tendencies for ballooning up in fast forward flight.

This is about the only part i'm having trouble with now and may require someone with knowledge of the DX8

I don't understand how to do this bit, I have a dx8 and i'm trying to figure out how i can set the Head gyro gain to something like and 3 way switch or Knob on the TX, So i can turn it in real time find the best setting for all flight modes, Well maybe land increase or decrease and hover / Fly and then once the best gain is found then put that into the RIGID head gyro tab in the helicommand software, Then disable the 3 way switch or Knob, so it's set for good, this will save having to change a setting and going back to the software time and time again to get the right setting.. Or should i just do it bit by bit in the software, maybe i'm over thinking it and being too anal.

I do understand now what to look for when changing the head gyro setting :-)

"Should i only tune this in Rigid mode for some reason ?" I understand that the gyro setting is only under the rigid tab, but under the Horizon tab should i have Rigid selected or Horizon

Also , if i'm right If the machine has a tail bob (bounce) after a sharp elevator input i would increase the Elevator Filter on the Rigid page of the HC software. By about 1 or 2 point's first to see if it stops rather than dropping back the head gyro setting to stop it, if that does not work then i would drop down the head gyro to stop it ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
The other channel is the tail gyro channel. Here you set the tail gain for a solid locked in tail, or however you want it to behave.
Excellent ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
That is very low, you loose a lot of control dissolution here. Use a hole one more to the center in the servo horn and try to increase these values.
Having identical values for left and right is perfect already, so your mechanics is symmetrical.
Ahh, i understand whats wrong now, i have a friend that has the same setup as mine and i noticed that his travel end limits where set to 125, but i forgot to ask how he did it, now i know, Cheers I'll fix this to get as much out of it as i can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
If your tail holds well, all is fine. That is up to your feelings, more or less. No one can tell about the values being the best for your heli. You need to fly this to know.
And again: head and tail are not really affected by each other.
I want to get it real crisp and locked in with all flight modes, I have had a personal break thru here :-), I now have the gyro channel in the TX switching between different flight modes, so for example (Values given are just example's), When i switch to flight mode normall POS (0) (Lower head speed) and I'm looking at the TX gyro menu, it goes to POS 0 (Normal mode) %70 on the Tail Gyro, This also corresponds to the HC software Tail gyro slider (In the diagnose tab), and so on for other flight modes, example F Mode 1 (Higher head speed) %65 for example on the Tail Gyro, again corresponds to the HC software Tail gyro slider (In the diagnose tab), Value changes from %70 to %65 :-) , so now i can tune the tail gyro out in the field and set it for different flight modes with different head speeds.. Excellent !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
If this is programmed to the HC's tail gyro channel....yes. Simply speaking: the HC offers an input channel to control the tail gain. But it does not care at all from where this signal is coming. This needs to be programmed in the radio by you. The tail gyro channel in the radio is not automatically set to the HC's tail gyro channel !
Got it :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
Forget the rate mode, old stuff. Set everything in Heading-lock mode. Rate, or normal mode is only interesting when setting up the mechanics. But as the HC software supplies the unit with center signals when connected to Diagnose and Trim tab, this is not necessary any more. All this is stated in the setup wizard (assuming you hopefully used this=!)

Yes the set wizard is really good now and easy to understand :-)

Ok before i read this today, i put on the training skids and slapped on crappy main blades, took it down to the field and did the following..

Set the tail gyro to normal (Rate mode) buy setting the tail gyro value to -10, spooled up slow and it started spinning on the ground (I expected this), I then made the tail rod shorter by turning the ball link IN and after a few shots and while still in Normall mode on the tail gyro, I got it to a point where i could lift off and did not have to put any input into the tail via the TX stick, the tail holds pretty still, Very slight drift, but so close to locked in, i was very happy with it, So now with the center TX stick the tail blades have an offset.

I then loaded the HC software and put it into HH mode, set it to %65, spooled it up lifted off the ground and it held well, in idel up (F MODE ) 0 and 0 = head speed 1900 and 1 head speed = 2200 both where fine, I also have a F MODE 2 head speed = 2450, there was a bit of tail wag, but now i understand that a high head speed requires less gain on the tail gyro. Will fix that later, I expect i will end up something like %70 F Mode 0, and %65 F Mode 1, and %60 F Mode 2, as an example.

Only question i have now is WHATS better for the mechanical setup, leave the tail as i have set it up (with off set blades )OR set it back to Zero pitch on the tail (Blades straight up and down, with no offset)

Reason i ask is a friend was with me today had he set his tail up the same (Offset blades) With a BeastX and he reckons it made a big difference. He is a lot more experienced than me. Not to sure if it was just setup paranoia coming into play, Ie: i changed it so it must be better.. I think we all suffer from this setup paranoia coming into play at times ;-)

So whats the best way to do the mechanical setup on the tail with the HC ?

Does offset tail blades make the tail gyro in the HC work more efficiently ? Ie: the software is not having to make much of a correction on the tail to compensate for drift ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
See above. It is simply finding the max gain, so you do not get a shivering on head or tail, and the head and tail lock in well to your needs.
Got it ! , Thanks :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
Hope I covered some things in my texts. Let us know when you have questions.

Joachim

I really do appreciate the time you have taken to help me out, it's always good to try and figure things out yourself, but at times when you are learing you need a bit of a hand and I'm very thankful that You and Danny, You have been very patient and such a great help.

I love the HC as a flybar unit and the more people down the club that are getting to understand it the more they are green with envy :-)

I need to learn everything i can about this unit, as I'm going to end up being the resident stooge who has to install and set them all up, so far 7 people want one !!

Anyway , Thanks very much in advance for your help ..


Cheers

Mark

P.S, I'm sure i'll end up with more HC units for future heli's :-)
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:06 AM   #4
Shtumpa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post

That is very low, you loose a lot of control dissolution here. Use a hole one more to the center in the servo horn and try to increase these values. Having identical values for left and right is perfect already, so your mechanics is symmetrial.
Ok, I decided to fix this now...

58 for left and right directions, is what i had for servo limits on the tail Gyro page, as you said to do i set ball link one hole more to the center of the servo horn, Infact 2 holes closer, As i was on the outer hole to start with, You learn a lot on your first heli setup. :-)

Now, I have 105 for left and right directions, befoure i get any binding on the tail :-), I set it at 104 to be safe ..

Is 104 a good amount of travel ?

To get equal directions, I have now set my tail blades back to dead level (Zero Pitch)

Awesome I'm getting VERY close to having this all sorted out

Cheers

Mark
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:53 PM   #5
Shtumpa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
Ok, I decided to fix this now...

58 for left and right directions, is what i had for servo limits on the tail Gyro page, as you said to do i set ball link one hole more to the center of the servo horn, Infact 2 holes closer, As i was on the outer hole to start with, You learn a lot on your first heli setup. :-)

Now, I have 105 for left and right directions, befoure i get any binding on the tail :-), I set it at 104 to be safe ..

Is 104 a good amount of travel ?

To get equal directions, I have now set my tail blades back to dead level (Zero Pitch)

Awesome I'm getting VERY close to having this all sorted out

Cheers

Mark

*Bump*
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:05 AM   #6
DEMONjoe
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Originally Posted by Shtumpa View Post
*Bump*
So....you got all right?
Sorry, I am German and am not familiar with this expression's meaning.....if it means "Yeah, I did it!" or more "Hmmm...totally stuck"
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:59 AM   #7
Shtumpa
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Originally Posted by Joachim HC View Post
So....you got all right?
Sorry, I am German and am not familiar with this expression's meaning.....if it means "Yeah, I did it!" or more "Hmmm...totally stuck"
Pretty right now, I know how to set it up and get it dialed in correct within the 1st battery, I have done 4 of them now, And have another 7 to do soon, as everybody down my local club is buying them, after they seem mine, So i have spent every day since i got it playing around with everything to learn about all the settings and what they do.

In fact I'm about to buy another one myself ..


Thanks for all your help ..
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