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Old 06-05-2012, 11:07 PM   #661
Tim Marks
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Originally Posted by rdlohr View Post
Thanks for that Tim. I'm still a bit confused why you don't let people control the HD based on how they know they fly. In the video, the unit seems quite capable of recovering in well under 50 ft. You are worried about liability, but it would be up to me to decide how much risk I want to take based on my flying style. The last thing I would be doing is trying to make your unit fail on my prized heli. If I used your unit, it would be to protect my heli.

Rick
Hi:

In my mind, it's kind of like this. Let's say you're interested in a car I want to sell you. I tell you the brakes work 100% of the time in any condition. All you have to do is push the pedal all the way to the floor. It doesn't matter if you're going 100 MPH or 20, the car will stop every time, guaranteed. And you say, O.K., but if I promise you that I will only ever drive 20 MPH, will you change the brakes so that I only have to press the pedal 1/2 way to the floor? I don't want to sell you a car where the brakes will not work 100% of the time in any condition. I depend on my engineers and my proficient test pilots to tell me what works reliably, every time. That's what I want to market and sell to you. Believe me. I hear you. If there was any way we could lower the HD to 20 feet today, and still guarantee it will work in any scenario, I would do it. But I will not go out with a product that may or may not work and leave it to customers to figure it out by trial and error. I understand if you can not accept that. That's fine with us. No reason to fight over the matter. It means I can not give you exactly what you think you need today. Maybe tomorrow. But I think a lot of people who appear to be so bent on this "it's useless with a 50 ft min" may change their minds when they witness HD for themselves. I guess time will tell.

Does that help to clear up your confusion?

Tim Marks
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:24 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Tim Marks View Post
Hi:

In my mind, it's kind of like this. Let's say you're interested in a car I want to sell you. I tell you the brakes work 100% of the time in any condition. All you have to do is push the pedal all the way to the floor. It doesn't matter if you're going 100 MPH or 20, the car will stop every time, guaranteed. And you say, O.K., but if I promise you that I will only ever drive 20 MPH, will you change the brakes so that I only have to press the pedal 1/2 way to the floor? I don't want to sell you a car where the brakes will not work 100% of the time in any condition. I depend on my engineers and my proficient test pilots to tell me what works reliably, every time. That's what I want to market and sell to you. Believe me. I hear you. If there was any way we could lower the HD to 20 feet today, and still guarantee it will work in any scenario, I would do it. But I will not go out with a product that may or may not work and leave it to customers to figure it out by trial and error. I understand if you can not accept that. That's fine with us. No reason to fight over the matter. It means I can not give you exactly what you think you need today. Maybe tomorrow. But I think a lot of people who appear to be so bent on this "it's useless with a 50 ft min" may change their minds when they witness HD for themselves. I guess time will tell.

Does that help to clear up your confusion?

Tim Marks
Yes, I understand your argument. You are setting it up for a worst case scenario, but I would argue that I have control over the way I fly and that I can avoid that worst case scenario entirely when I choose to.

I agree that there is no reason to fight over it. Its completely your call. As I said earlier, 50 ft is a deal breaker for me, but I'm sure it is suitable for many others. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to this helping many new pilots.

Rick
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:28 PM   #663
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No. You are just trying to get the rise. You know it. I know it. It is all true. You just want to create a different perception based on you're own personal vandetta.

All of what you see here is why of all the people I know in this hobby, who have been doing it a long long time and really know their stuff, very rarely do any frequent forum posting.

Of the large number of really good pilots and long timers, I really can't think of one that is a frequent poster.

It is because of what you see here and what Rick is doing now. There are a very very large number of highly experienced and educated people who see it exactly this way because that is what it is.

You boys enjoy yourselves arguing while the rest of us actually do something of value.

There goes the HF motto out the window....
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:30 PM   #664
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Yes, I understand your argument. You are setting it up for a worst case scenario, but I would argue that I have control over the way I fly and that I can avoid that worst case scenario entirely when I choose to.

I agree that there is no reason to fight over it. Its completely your call. As I said earlier, 50 ft is a deal breaker for me, but I'm sure it is suitable for many others. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to this helping many new pilots.

Rick
I agree,I think this unit is a valuable tool, but I want to be able to adjust it to my needs..
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:36 PM   #665
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But there must be a middle in there somewhere, don't you think, Dominic.
(this said without taking any sides)
Consider that moderating occurs after the posts such that when it is necessary to do something, the post has already occurred. The horse is already too far from the barn.

Part of the no win scenario.

If you put the horse in the barn before it walks too far away, based on guessing it was going to leave on it's own, then PETA cries foul that the horse should be left to graze, that it hadn't left yet and in their view, wasn't going to leave.

People can easily Monday morning quarterback the mods all day.

Hope the helps a bit.

Mike

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Old 06-05-2012, 11:36 PM   #666
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No. You are just trying to get the rise. You know it. I know it. It is all true. You just want to create a different perception based on you're own personal vandetta.
Pot, meet kettle.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:37 PM   #667
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There goes the HF motto out the window....
Yes, but he will be convinced it is our fault when he gets himself banned again.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:42 PM   #668
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Yes, I understand your argument. You are setting it up for a worst case scenario, but I would argue that I have control over the way I fly and that I can avoid that worst case scenario entirely when I choose to.

I agree that there is no reason to fight over it. Its completely your call. As I said earlier, 50 ft is a deal breaker for me, but I'm sure it is suitable for many others. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to this helping many new pilots.

Rick
Hi:

Thank you for your reply, and let me be equally clear in my response to you. Based on your logic, I would say that you are likely not a pilot who would benefit from a Hard Deck Module, and I do not mean this to sound "smart" or "rude". If you can always control your heli as precisely as you state, then perhaps you have already mastered it completely and you have no reason to depend on an automated bail-out system.

I understand that pilots routinely fly 3D at low altitude. We would characterize those individuals as expert level pilots. HD Module is for the pilot who wishes to learn 3D and have the confidence that he will take his model home in one piece if he tries something new. We remain confident that asking the target customer to fly 1 mistake high is a small price to pay for the security HD offers.

Tim Marks
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:53 PM   #669
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Hi:

Thank you for your reply, and let me be equally clear in my response to you. Based on your logic, I would say that you are likely not a pilot who would benefit from a Hard Deck Module, and I do not mean this to sound "smart" or "rude". If you can always control your heli as precisely as you state, then perhaps you have already mastered it completely and you have no reason to depend on an automated bail-out system.

I understand that pilots routinely fly 3D at low altitude. We would characterize those individuals as expert level pilots. HD Module is for the pilot who wishes to learn 3D and have the confidence that he will take his model home in one piece if he tries something new. We remain confident that asking the target customer to fly 1 mistake high is a small price to pay for the security HD offers.

Tim Marks
No, I am an intermediate level pilot. I have many basic skills I still struggle with that I would like a safety net for. When I am learning new moves though, I can avoid high speed events that would be difficult for your unit to recover from. I don't have to be that precise to avoid high speed. Does that make sense?

Rick
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:09 AM   #670
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No, I am an intermediate level pilot. I have many basic skills I still struggle with that I would like a safety net for. When I am learning new moves though, I can avoid high speed events that would be difficult for your unit to recover from. I don't have to be that precise to avoid high speed. Does that make sense?

Rick
Hi:

Yes, that is a perfectly sound rationale. Thank you for explaining it to me. If flying up to 50+ feet is a deal breaker for you, perhaps in time, we will be able to accomodate your needs. As with everything, one has to crawl before one can walk.

But please also understand, I don't think you can control every event that could cause problems for HD. It's not just high speed dives into the deck. HD actually handles those quite well most of the time. Other events, such as a blade stall wherein you lose head speed rapidly. This is likely the most problematic event for HD to handle. You can not alter the laws of physics. When head speed is down, the only thing that will get it back up is altitude. If you check the video we released, you can see there are times when the heli drops a good bit of altitude. In fact, if you watch this video and you imagine the deck was set to 20 or 30 feet instead of 50 feet, it's likely the heli would have been in the ground, and again, at these times, Jack was not necessarily diving at high speed into the deck. Please watch the video carefully again and consider these things I say.

I know that the beta testers' attempts to describe why a min 50 foot deck is not practical rubbed many the wrong way. They took it as an insult to hear someone say "there are too many variables". But the truth is, there are a lot of variables that affect HD performance and everyone needs to trust us when we say, no one has more experience with HD than we do. We have literally been eating, drinking, and breathing HD for over a year now. It's been an exhaustive R&D program full of a ton of failures, re-building, and hair pulling.

Tim Marks
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:19 AM   #671
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Hi:

Yes, that is a perfectly sound rationale. Thank you for explaining it to me. If flying up to 50+ feet is a deal breaker for you, perhaps in time, we will be able to accomodate your needs. As with everything, one has to crawl before one can walk.

But please also understand, I don't think you can control every event that could cause problems for HD. It's not just high speed dives into the deck. HD actually handles those quite well most of the time. Other events, such as a blade stall wherein you lose head speed rapidly. This is likely the most problematic event for HD to handle. You can not alter the laws of physics. When head speed is down, the only thing that will get it back up is altitude. If you check the video we released, you can see there are times when the heli drops a good bit of altitude. In fact, if you watch this video and you imagine the deck was set to 20 or 30 feet instead of 50 feet, it's likely the heli would have been in the ground, and again, at these times, Jack was not necessarily diving at high speed into the deck. Please watch the video carefully again and consider these things I say.

I know that the beta testers' attempts to describe why a min 50 foot deck is not practical rubbed many the wrong way. They took it as an insult to hear someone say "there are too many variables". But the truth is, there are a lot of variables that affect HD performance and everyone needs to trust us when we say, no one has more experience with HD than we do. We have literally been eating, drinking, and breathing HD for over a year now. It's been an exhaustive R&D program full of a ton of failures, re-building, and hair pulling.

Tim Marks
Yes, I could see head speed and specific things would be an issue. I'm just willing to learn what those things are and treat this tool like every other part of my heli. Its a balance between risk and benefit and I like to make those choices.

Rick
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:16 AM   #672
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the motto went out a long time ago/you pot (bad info-wrong facts-see me face to face again if we need)/ban away if that is what turns you on.

have done nothing worth banning. amazing to let the things that are said by others on this forum but the truth is ban worthy.

last post on this topic. this is why few post anymore.
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:59 AM   #673
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The one thing that created the biggest s-storm was from 'staff'.

Totally incorrect asumption with no facts or data and the gun was jumped big time.

An accusation of creating a 2nd user name to post a video which was totally incorrect.

No facts, no data, just assumptions and the desire to stir a pot. Just like you see right here in this thread.

There is big difference in banging on a keyboard and getting out in the field and doing big things that make big contributions.
You are so FOS Philip. Want me to post some of your version of the truth for all to see. I think you need to keep it real and cut the BS or I am going to lay it all out for all to see. Got it? I hope so because I certainly WILL do it.

Anyone can search your posts not just 2012 and see you are about helping YOU not anybody else. I am telling you, I have been EXTREMELY nice to you and let you back after physical threats to members and staff clone accounts and just general BS like you calling my phone WAY TO MANY times in a day. I will post all our communication if you tell any more lies here man. See if I won't. Who turned this thread to BS? You.

These are a few of the clones, there are more.
Amp Draw 68.189.219.12 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
dr. pepper 68.189.219.12 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
philipfrank 68.189.219.12 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]

Closed and moved.
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Not again!!!
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:46 AM   #674
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Thanks Tim, that's loud and clear. Still I think you underestimate average customer's knowledge and responsibility although admittedly it's not apparent from Gettysburg thread which has finally spiraled into the ground and crashed despite your final attempt at Emergency Recovery.

You're of course correct in saying that nobody reads the manuals (with the notable exception of my friend Sutty). I, for example, still don't know what the code for the advanced setup is that enables "Level inverted" flight mode although I'm pretty sure I saw it out of the corner of my eye somewhere while skimming the manual. I just don't need it yet and I'll get to it when the time is right.

The CP2 isn't very difficult to set-up but it's not that easy, either, it actually requires pretty decent understanding of CP heli setup to be commissioned successfully. Manual is only so-so and Sutty confirms this fleeting impression of mine . IMHO this all but prevents the category of people who would treat the R/C heli like a toy and try to dive it into the ground for fun from actually using it, although of course won't stop anyone with more setup skills who would want to discredit your product on purpose. It's a shame, really, that we have to watch our backs so often in this life. It's 100% your call, of course, so I won't beat it to death, but HD level below 50' will stay on the top of my request list, regardless of its negative impact on the reliability of the recovery. Heck, why not even make it adjustable from 0'? Nobody will defeat that HD, not even with stalled blades It's clear to me that you've got this request registered, so that's that.

Next on the list is a clarification: as my heli tumbles onto the HD CP2 goes into ER and pulls up on the collective by setting +8°. Two questions here:
  • At which point it returns the collective control to the pilot?
  • Is it an instantaneous or ramped return of control, let's say over 0.5 - 0.75 sec period? I think I would prefer the latter.
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:51 AM   #675
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Default Can it be used on a vintage heli?

From the comments, this is aimed at the 3D and or CCPM type machines, but my thoughts are more towards providing dumb thumb protection for a vintage helicopter that if at all possible has to be protected from crashing, in that if it does, it will not be possible to rebuild it easily, if at all. The main issue is that because of it's age, it's NOT 3D capable, and does not as such have CCPM. To clarify, it's an old Graupner Bell 212, which has a swashplate, but the swash only deals with aileron and elevator, the collective is transferred up the centre of the main shaft to the head. There is no negative pitch capability or inverted flight option with this machine, it's too old and too early for things like that, it was one of the very first usable model helicopters, and yes, things have moved on a long way since then, but that doesn't detract from the impressive sight that it makes. It's no longer a Nitro machine, it's been converted to electric power, and has flown low hover in that mode, but it's time to get to being able to fly circuits with it.

So, if a really high "hard floor" was set up, will that have the effect of preventing more than a 30 degree roll or pitch on the machine, or is it not going to be possible to use this to augment the system.

Yes, in some ways it's "cheating", but in the specific case here, it's appropriate, the Bell is over 30 years old, and has been restored after being crashed a long time ago, and there are good reasons for making sure it stays in one piece.

Thanks

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Old 06-06-2012, 06:12 AM   #676
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Steve, you're really letting the "purists" beat you down, aren't you? It's not cheating if it helps your bird stay up in the air and fly safely. Heck, I very much prefer the pilots to cheat and use their sophisticated autopilots on every transatlantic flight that I'm on

Back to your question: Copilot 2 will keep your bird level just fine as long as the main sensor can see the horizon and the vertical sensor has unobstructed view up and down. The installation of the sensors maybe a bit tricky on a scale bird, but is certainly doable. The newly announced HD module is an add-on to the existing CP2 system and is designed to trigger leveling response and pull your bird up automatically if it falls down below preset altitude (settable to 50' or more) while being >30° from level. More aimed at 3D practicing imho but should work very well on a scale bird as well, why not?
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:05 AM   #677
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The question is did my CP2 kit ship yesterday or are you waiting to include a HD module for me to test? I can't wait to try this. I think I will be the first in my area to have a CP.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:14 AM   #678
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Steve, you're really letting the "purists" beat you down, aren't you? It's not cheating if it helps your bird stay up in the air and fly safely. Heck, I very much prefer the pilots to cheat and use their sophisticated autopilots on every transatlantic flight that I'm on
Not at all, I'm a great believer in simulation, and have worked in that area a while back, the "cheating" comment was very much tongue in cheek! There are times when too much dependence on simulation and automation can be problematic, in that "realworld" experience is sometimes essential when something happens that the automation can't deal with correctly, but that's a horse of a very different colour!

Quote:
Back to your question: Copilot 2 will keep your bird level just fine as long as the main sensor can see the horizon and the vertical sensor has unobstructed view up and down. The installation of the sensors maybe a bit tricky on a scale bird, but is certainly doable. The newly announced HD module is an add-on to the existing CP2 system and is designed to trigger leveling response and pull your bird up automatically if it falls down below preset altitude (settable to 50' or more) while being >30° from level. More aimed at 3D practicing imho but should work very well on a scale bird as well, why not?
Excellent. The Bell is a big bird, larger than a 700, and there's plenty of space in the thing to lose/hide the bits, I was more worried that the Hard deck unit might be too modern to be of use, given we're not planning to put it into crazy positions in the first place, we may well get away with a hard deck as low as 10 Ft, which will give a much better security blanket to a machine that's effectively pretty much irreplaceable, but at some stage soon, needs to fly again. Not so much that Bell 212's can't be found, they are about, I got 2 over the last 9 months for very cheap prices compared to Germany, but more that this particular machine has very significant and deep sentimental attachments for it's owner (not me) so keeping it safe while it is in the air is priority No 1.

As for me, over time I will probably end up with some form of machine that has full GPS, autoflight, maybe even autoland on it, I've sufficient computer and flying background to be able to at least see wood from trees, even if I'm not actually cutting code, and the thought of a viable autoflight model that can be used for a number of specific tasks is very thought provoking, there are a number of jobs that don't need a person in a full size helicopter to do them, a good quality camera being controlled by a skilled observer on the ground is just as effective, and the operating costs are a fraction of the cost of a full size machine. There's a lot happening in DIY Drones on that side of things, which I watch and keep up to date with, but for now, I'm taking my time and moving a step at a time, prior to this project, I had no model heli flying experience, so I've started with a Trex 500 clone, which is at full pack hover stage, tail in, and that's about to be expanded to things like nose in, but we're lost our indoor flying training area for a while due to building work. Once that's comfortable, then I move on to one of my Bell 212's, and then who knows where.

The big issue with the Autoflight side will be endurance, so that's going to mean something like a strimmer (or larger) engine for power, and an on board small generator to keep the battery full, with a large fuel tank, so I'm heading rapidly into Vario country, which is expensive! I can also envisage some "interesting" discussions with the national aviation authority as well, which is where a full size commercial licence will come in handy.

Thanks for the feedback, it's looking like the CPII set up will be worth exploring in more depth. Time to send the makers a mail, to get some in depth info direct from them, and to see if there is anyone in this country that sells the gear.

Cheers

Steve
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:21 AM   #679
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Please understand my effort in tying to keep this thread (roughly) on track... The HD module is quite a bit off from being available for ordering/shipping, my guess is we're talking a couple of months here, but it's a pure speculation on my part. Good luck with your CP2 setup in the meantime
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Trex 700N Pro fbl, 600N Pro x 2, 450SE v1, 250 v2 fbl, Compass 6HV fbl, Blade 450x, 400, 300x, 130x, mCPx, 120SR, mQx, mSR, Rotor Concepts HPQ1, Walkera CB180Q, CB100, Novus FP, CP, Esky Hunter, Big Lama.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:26 AM   #680
jperkosk
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Not very hard. The documentation is not great, but adequate, and the programming itself is actually very intuitive. Ask a question or two in this forum if you get stuck and you'll be up and running in no time at all.
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Jerry
Trex 700N Pro fbl, 600N Pro x 2, 450SE v1, 250 v2 fbl, Compass 6HV fbl, Blade 450x, 400, 300x, 130x, mCPx, 120SR, mQx, mSR, Rotor Concepts HPQ1, Walkera CB180Q, CB100, Novus FP, CP, Esky Hunter, Big Lama.
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