Goblin - Project details and Build issues

[windwizard]

UPDATED: PROJECT & BUILD "ISSUES" DATA BASE

SETUP DETAILS

Flight Style: Sport, Big Air n/a
Headspeed: 2094 power / 2178 general /2241cruising
Motor: Scorpion 4525-520 (92.8 % eff.) .......................................... $349.99
Motor lube Scorpion Motor Bearing Lubrication Kit.................... $5.00
Pulley: 21 Tooth (optional Pulley = 9.71:1)...................................... $16.00
FBL System: V-BAR Full size (blue) ver. - 5.2.................................. $319.99
Hyperion phase sensor............................................ ............................ $9.00
Governor: v-bar

BEC: Western Robotics Hercules Super BEC.................................. $100.00
Bec Adaptor (WR) Used for back-up battery pack........................... $12.00
RX: (2 remotes) Spektrum DSMX Remote Receivers...................... $70.00
BEC Backup Pack: 800 mAh NiMH buffer pack & charger............ $30.00
ESC: KONTRONICS Heli Jive 120+ HV(v11)....................................... $539.99
Kontronik Pro-disk Programming Card............................................. $128.00
Cyclic Servos: Outrage BL9180 (8.4v)............................................ ... $380.00
Tail Servo: Outrage BL9188 (8.4v)............................................ .......... $138.00
Futaba replacement arms for Outrage servos # 04021.................. $17.00
(arms replaced due to tight fit next to servo support frame)

Servo Extension Tail servo............................................. ..................... $2.00
Main Blades: 690mm Stock SAB n/a
Tail Blades: 115mm Stock SAB n/a
Lipos: 2nd choice Turnigy 35C 6S 5000mah(x2)............................ $120.00
Wire red 10 guage .................................................. ............................... $4.00
Wire black 10 guage............................................. ................................. $4.00
EC5 connectors For Battery Harness (4 set)................................... $6.00
EC3 connectorsFor BEC (2set)............................................ ............... $2.50
M2.5x10 Screws (1bag)............................................ ............................. $4.00
(longer screws needed for mounting Torq servos)

Shrink tube (green)........................................... ..................................... $15.00
Tri Flow synthetic grease with teflon............................................ ..... $10.00
Glue gun............................................... .................................................. .. $9.00
Shoe Goo............................................... .................................................. . $6.00
Swashplate leveler (true-blood for trex 700 nitro)........................... $25.00
SAB GOBLIN 700 Flybarless Electric Helicopter Kit........................ $1000.00
MISC. COST FOR EXTRAS AND SHIPPING TAX............................... $75.00
___________
TOTAL $3422.00

__________________________________________________ _____________________________


Goblin "build issues" data-base.

HEADSPEED CALCULATIONS: (Calculator at readyheli.com)

http://www.readyheli.com/headspeed-calculator.html

It also includes the update/repair for the wrong gear ratios (listed in the 1.3V manual) showing the pinion drive gear having 19 teeth not the actual 20.

Example for a Scorpion 4525-520 motor
Result for calculation using 21 tooth (OPTIONAL) motor pulley

• (this will keep rpm's above head wobble zone)
• Estimated lowest voltage during flight: 42.00
• Lowest RPM (due to voltage and efficiency) : 2023
• For + performance, keep req. RPM below: 2094
• For target performance, keep req. RPM below: 2178
• For - performance, keep req. RPM below: 2241
• 21t = 9.71:1 gear ratio for headspeed calc.

Tech notes:

"Tips and tricks" video thread in SAB Forum covers the following...

• belt tensioning
• blade grip arm assembly
• gluing bolt to main gear for easy assembly

ALSO - See Mr Mels "V-BAR" video series in Mikado support area of Tech Forum.

Longer metal bolts needed for Outrage Torq servo mounting - Replacing the M2.5x8 screws with M2.5x10 screws

• Servo extension needed for tail servo as a "safety break away".
• Glue gun needed to glue servo cable to inner boom and to secure electrical. componant connectors into the" V-bar" recepticles (if using v-bar fbl system)

FRAME ISSUES

Manual 1.3 - page 26 recommends de-burring the edges of the carbon frame but this should be done as the "first order of business", not after the heli is almost fully assembled. All the CF frame pieces are extemely sharp and should be dulled - it is an easy job if completed prior to assembly.


MOTOR ISSUES

The motor shaft should be cut - required length is 28.5mm

If not cut, the maximum height of the battery is 50 mm

If you cut, then maximum Battery height is increased to 60mm

Maximum motor height is 68mm.

For greater motor height it's necessary to modify the opening in the canopy.

SAB GOBLIN USA - (In answer to my question) says..."Quantum 4530 is delta wound and there is no issue using Kontronik Jive ESC with it."

Align MX 700 is perfectly compatible

Scoprion 4035-560 is listed as a motor suitable for general flight in the Goblin
manual p28. but the mounting holes dont line up for all four screws and you will have to mount motor with only two screws! NOTE: (patern is 30mm spacing)

Scorpion 4525-520 Ultimate - mounting pattern matches the 4 bolt motor plate

Warning! check resistance from shaft to motor leads - should be infinite ohms. If not, the mounting screws could be too long touching motor windings, this could cause an ESC FIRE and failure in flight (This issue is a general warning not specific to the Goblin)


ROTOR-HEAD ASSEMBLY

Tech note from SAB - "Use the special washer(s), page 23, if you planning to run over 2000 HS (washer is circled on page 15 of manual 1.3)

The head is already assembled without the H232 part. (only for early kits)
If the headspeed is > 2000 rpm then the H232 part has to be added (pag 33).

In any case the blades have to be really tight (pag 33) and a small quantity of gear lube has to be added to the main gear.

These shims increase the damper preload therefore increasing head rigidity. Please make sure your main blades are tight on the grips, you should be able to violently jerk the head in both directions and the blades should not fold.

Failure to tighten the blades properly and/or run incorrect dampening preload can result in a boom strike.

If you remove the shims on the head you won't have any wobble issues at low headspeeds. Wobble present at 1900 rpm."

All later shipments of Goblins (after 1st batch) already have shims installed!


THRUST BEARINGS

Some are reporting that the Thrust bearing is bone dry, others reported bearing installed backwards.

Note: You must disassemble factory head to make sure everything is greased and loctite is applied properly.

SAB is recommending Tri-Flow clear synthetic (PTFE, Teflon) grease for thrust bearing/bearings . You should be able to get this at any bicycle shop.


MAINSHAFT

Vertical play in the mainshaft occuring due to factory hole being larger than retaining bolt that attaches collet to shaft.

This was "by design" to allow collet to be position to "take up" any axial/vertical slack in mainshaft, but the problem is that it also allows the collet to work its way down the shaft over time.

One solution mentioned...
Use align .5mm trex 700 main shaft washer in between collet and bearing, this will permanently fix it so that you need not relying on a friction fit of collet to hold the assembly in place. (I also did this and it worked great!)

http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-700-main-shaft-spacer-hn7075.html


DRIVE PULLEY WARNING (ALL 3 pulleys possibly)

SAB Goblin 700 Service Advisory #2 - (20th March 2012)

..."Despite extensive testing, it has come to our attention that one or two main drive pulleys (H0016) have had the pulley flange loosen from the pulley during flight.

We are working to rectify this problem, and have designed a new system to secure the flange to this pulley. Replacement pulleys will be shipping soon – if you have purchased a Goblin, please contact your dealer to arrange a replacement."

Others are now reporting crashes due to this problem and the same problem being found on the motor pulley and tail pully.

UPDATE: - SAB Repalacement Parts now avaliable!

Defective Tail drive Pulley REPLACEMENT FROM S.A.B.

37 Tooth [H0101-S]


36T (light weight version with larger inside flange)


NOTE: Replacement tail drive pulleys H0101-S has an extra tooth from origional. Was 36, now 37, for added tail authority.

But replacement tail drive pulley H0016 retains the origional 36 tooth count.

NOTE: NEW PULLEYS AVALIABLE

26 AND 27 tooth REINFORCED tail pulleys (pulley located in the very back)


Resource for pulleys - avaliable directly from SAB and Heli Direct!

http://www.goblin-helicopter.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pulley&x=0&y=0

http://helidirect.com/sab-new-heavy-duty-tail-pulley-26t-goblin-700-h0102-s-p-26612.hdx

CAUTION: check that locktight is propery applied to all Pully Flange Bolts.


PULLEY SHAFT (Z60)

Z60 pulley shaft must have a little up & down play in the range of 0.2-0.8 mm, Confirmed by SAB Tech Dept.


SECONDARY SHAFT BOLT FAILURE

"Advisory notice to all, the "pinion to shaft" bolt on the secondary shaft.
(The upper one above the slanted pinion Z20) failed in flight on my Goblin.

...I have replaced all these with Align 500 head bolts . The bolt that holds the 500 head to the main shaft. It's a perfect fit and has shoulder the whole way through the pinion gear, it works perfect - will not break."


Drive Shaft Bolts - WARNING!

There have been reports of bolt failures of those being used to secure
pinions, gears and pulleys.

Best Practice:
Replace ALL shaft bolts with appropriately sized "shouldered" bolts.

SAB announcement - (on their website 4-10-12)
..." We will replace all the bolts and send to distributors in about a week.
New kits will have new shouldered bolts. All of our bolts are DIN 12.9,
highest quality bolts and screws.

Alternative resource for shouldered bolts if your cannot wait for SAB

http://www.alignrcusa.com/index.php?...oducts_id=2385


ONE -WAY BEARING

Posted - "Brass surrounding one way seized on intermediate shaft.
Took it apart and sanded/cleaned and oiled, all good now.
Another post - "One way" was dry as a sun baked bone, needed grease."

Best Practice: The One Way Bearing should be greased during build!



TENSIONING SPRING - (tail drive and main drive)

Tail belt tensioning spring is not symmetrical, the length of the bends on the end are different. The short end goes up and the other end goes down, (the shorter side on the support, the longer on the arm.) SAB has updated later manuals.

NOTE: The spring may be secured even better with a dab of epoxy in mounting hole.

Drive Belt Tensioning Spring - Also could use a tiny dab of epoxy to glue the Drive Belt tensioning springs into the motor mount, - it just makes mounting the motor unit that much easier.


DRIVE BELT LIFE?

Depends on the type of flight ...average is over 100 flights
Belt care - (main and tail)... Food Grade Silicon Spray works well to lubricate belts.


BATTERIES

Use Velcro to help hold batteries in tray – (back of tray is open)

One lockstrap per battery in conjunction with O-rings may help save batteries from suffering cuts from upper edges of frame. (As has been reported by 3-D pilots)

Battery Tray can be installed in one of two positions to allow for slightly larger batteries if necessary. (keeping in mind to cut the motor shaft as stated above.)


CANOPY TIPS

May have to ream out mounting holes to make them line up correctly

Use the foam pieces pushed out from the blade holder to make the canopy fit without sliding to one side. Measure and cut two pieces off with the rounded sides glued to the canopy.

Duct tape inside of canopy over mounting holes to strengthen
canopy from cracking when flexing during removal and mounting

Canopy modification to minimize stress damage: (install 5/16 gromets)

I Had to ream out the canopie holes just a bit. With the new gromets mounted on the canopy they slipped over the face of the mounting studs and push into position with a little finger pressure. You still get 2 3/4 turns on the threaded fasteners as they thread tight against the gromets.

One detail - you need to ream the holes in the canopy large enough to allow the gromets to expand just a little bit for when you push them into position over the top portion of the mounting studs.

..




Update: SAB canopy grommet now avaliable - ( # HA111)



Canopy placement and removal tip

Always put the swash all the way down. Grip links facing front and back. Very easy to slide on the canopy that way - otherwise it can be a real fight!


BOOM QUALITY

Some booms needed to be sprayed by local body shop with
a 2 pass clear coat.

I buffed with a polymer treatment product to make the matt finish
shine like it was clear coated

Newer Booms are now "flawless"


FLYBAR SENSOR POSITION

A FBL sensor does not need to be centred on the heli, it just needs to be square to the mainshaft and centerline of the heli. it is important that leads has some flex in it so as to not transfer any vibrations into the sensor.


SWASH-PLATE QUALITY

Swash has a little vertical float to the centern ball. Turns out that
“I2 Swashes” are built with the same loose ball and are very good
swashes - should not be an issue.


TAILBOOM WARNING WARNING!

Check clearance between the blade at "0 pitch" and top of boom.
Min. distance is 145 cm, if less, - add "TAPE" under nylon bolts.

FAILURE to rectify this issue may allow for a boom strike!!
Please review the video linked below for specifics on addressing this isssue.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=395680

"Shoe Goo" the servo lead (servo inside the boom) down and tape lead to servo, (glue gun application are already being reported to not stick long term to the
inside of the boom)

NYLON BOLT WARNING!

Don't over tighten your nylon tail mounting bolts or they will snap!
Post - "I snapped one off with the supplied wrench! Just get it snug,
the carbon plate on top will hold it in place,"

Home Depot - sells nylon bolts that fit perfectly in case SAB nylon bolts snap.


BOOM SPACER - Failure

Don't overtighten, and may want to consider not using CA but rather use epoxy
Post - "I epoxied that sucker to the side of the boom. CA is worthless on metal, it
will come loose"


BALL LINK ISSUES

Blank side of the ball link is pressed onto the ball- SAB stamp faces out.
Ball links are tight, will have to wear in- if too tight then ream them out


SERVO INSALLATION AND RELATED ISSUES

Servos for swash must be installed using spacers provided (For Mikado and
Outrage servos (rubber and carbon fiber) this will require 2.5mmx10mm screws

Servo arms with "Torqs servos" need to be replaced with mikado or Futabas - both work perfectly on my Torque 9180s.

..."I got the proper resolution from my Vbar and also the arm spacing put the links as vertical as I could measure them. The red also matched the servo color (futaba arms). part numbers liste on first post."


TAIL SETUP ISSUES

Post - "Tail rotor stalling due to over inducing pitch -…We reduced the travel to 20 deg Left and 30 deg right, which resulted in a more even VBar setting of 76 and 74.

Please note that the tail servo endpoints are at 76 and 74 and as this is below what Mikado recommends, it still works perfectly. One cannot get the servo arm shorter due to the fixed position of the push rod guide and any shorter on the servo arm results in a push rod that binds in the guide."

General consensus is to add pitch mechanically 3 or 4 deg. (for hover) and set servos centered and pitch arms at 90 for the rest of v-bar setup.

There is a slight amount of radial play in the tail grips because of the thrust bearings

Tail thrust bearing (factory assembled) -dry as a bone without grease.

BEST PRACTICE: Disassemble factory tail to make sure all is greased and that loctite is applied properly.

Flanged bearings - Check the flanged bearings (HC414-S) in your tail side plate / fin! They came loose in some machines and made a strange noise. A little bit of CA and everything was ok,

TAIL CONTROL ROD

Use epoxy to glue the screw inserts to the tail rod which holds the ball links. Securing with epoxy rather than CA will give a stronger connection. Also, scuff surface of inner rod prior to epoxy application. (Some crashes have been reported due to this issue)

...Logo 600 CF tail control rod is longer than stock goblin rod and can be used to make a precision cut and fitted rod, (should be long enough to allow the servo to be turned 180 to allow servo cable to be positioned more accurately away from the tail belt as well)


MAINGEAR BREAK-IN (forum opinions)

Manual specs...
"A lite lubricant such as WD-40 is recommended for break-in to allow gears to seat properly since there is no lash spacing on the goblin."

A more effective lubricant will only prolong the break-in period. (Normally 5- 10 flights)

WARNING: concerningn main-gear break-in.
From experience: (as stated on the forum)

"I did not use WD-40 as recommended by SAB. Instead I used triflow synthetic grease --> big mistake. The grease + black gear powder (from initial wearing) + dirt gummed up and together this combination somehow has worn the gear so quickly that after 10 flights, I already have tons of backlash which is definitely NOT good.

Replaced the maingear with a new one and used WD-40 for BREAK-IN --> great success. After a few flights, WD-40 flew away and the gear backlash has been perfect!"


Premature Drive Pinion Failure:

Main Drive Pinion (Aluminum)

Multiple sources are reporting extensive wear appearing on the pinion gear as early as 40 to 50 flights! Various lubrication attempts are seemily not the answer with limited success being reported.

SAB SOLUTION... "Steel pinions will be available soon, look for them at distribution locations around 2nd week in July" (Bert K. 6/18/12)

SAB NOTE: STEEL PINION GEAR "BREAK-IN" PROCEEDURE

"No break-in required with steel pinion, no grease or oil needed either" (Bert Kammerer 6/19/12)



GEAR RATIO ERROR IN MANUAL 1.3 – REVISION BELOW

In the manual, the helical pinion (up top) is a 19 tooth gear, but in reality it is 20 tooth

Corrected ratios for calculating head speed

16 TOOTH PINION = 12.75
18 TOOTH PINION = 11.33
19 TOOTH PINION = 10.74
20 TOOTH PINION = 10.20
21 TOOTH PINION = 9.71
22 TOOTH PINION = 9.27
23 TOOTH PINION = 8.87
24 TOOTH PINION = 8.50
26 TOOTH PINION = 7.85


SAB ADDRESSES "NOTED CONCERNS" BY
CONSOLIDATING MULTIPLE MOD.'S INTO THE
CURRENT KIT.

The following picture serves as a great "quick reference" for all early kit recipiants who want an overview of every part that they should replace with avaliable upgrades.




ESC INSTALLATION (heli jive 120)

NOTE: Sideplate on heli must come off - or stall build untill ESC is mounted if mounting Heli Jive with pre-installed heatsink.

Best practice for ESC mounting: Use the Base Plate as a heat sink!
Use heat-sink compound or heat-sink tape
and heat rated tie-wraps and don't use Jive with pre-installed heat sink,
Clean and simple.

Thermal tape resource:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/37..._148_0012.html


KONTRONIC ESC…

· Heli jive 120 + (+ means more output with cooling)

· Latest version is 11.0

· KSA mode not used with scorpion motor

· Mode 8 updated to work with V-bar external governor

Disconnet red power lead (patch cable between esc and v-bar) if using a separate external BEC Approved to work with V-bar

· Home page has a support and news tab – both are useful

· Newer programming disk – available if needed

· Bail out funct. used with throttle hold set at 40% with full resume for 15 sec.

Heli Jive notes regarding Scorp. 4525-520 ultimate
stick to mode 4 or 5
21 tooth pulley if you want headspeeds of 2200+
20 tooth pulley if you want headspeeds 2000-2200.
The H-jive works best with throttle between 65 and 70,
The H-Jive sweetspot is 65-70 it says so clearly in the manual
Decrease pulley to 20 tooth will bring your throttle up to around 58-72. Much less work for all the electronics and better results

SAB - say's to run first flights at 1700-1800 for breaking in gears.

Sidenote: If you are flying at low rpm (less than about 2000/2100 rpm) it is always recommended to use the tail pulley with 26 teeth.


MIKADO V-Bar

· full size 5.2– (blue) – more resistant to vibration than the black one

· Requires 2 spectrum satellite receivers

· Small emergency battery suggested (5 cell NiCd/NiHM 8v) charges off BEC

· Pro software upgrade (after purchase – later on)

· Western Robotics is about to release an adapter that will allow their super bec to work with emergency battery pack to power Vbar and servos.

Mikado and Kontronics have partnered togather to allow programing
VBAR v5.2 and heli jive v11.0 setup to be very straight forward - yea!


Wiring diagram (my general scheme)




Landing Skids Modifications:

Rubber trim application:

Skid project details at the the following thread.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=400609

Build thread short-cut

Thunder fighter did such a great job, I didn't want all his valuable work to get lost in the archives of post dated threads. - Check out his build procedure below...

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=391487

Build Video short-cut

Here is the best time lapse build vid. out there - in my opinion.

YouTube

YouTube

Wiz

[G200driver]

Windwizard,

I just wanted to say that this is the SINGLE MOST informative, well written, well laid out, well thought out thread that I've ever read on the whole damn internet!!!

Thanks for taking your time and doing this!

Jim

[popokatepetl]

Please put this into the list as it's very important.

Use epoxy to glue the screw inserts to the tail rod which holds the ball links. Secure it by epoxy as much as possible.

Why? Friend of mine had a very bad crash recently so he had to buy a whole new kit! The screw which comes to the tail rod was secured by CA as said in manual but it looks like it's not sufficient. Then I advice everyone to use a lot of epoxy!

[Mystic3D]

Originally Posted by popokatepetl

Please put this into the list as it's very important.

Use epoxy to glue the screw inserts to the tail rod which holds the ball links. Secure it by epoxy as much as possible.

Why? Friend of mine had a very bad crash recently so he had to buy a whole new kit! The screw which comes to the tail rod was secured by CA as said in manual but it looks like it's not sufficient. Then I advice everyone to use a lot of epoxy!

Absolutely!
Also would add use a file to rough up the rod that goes into the carbon rod, some light cuts are sufficient. JB Weld or epoxy is good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[windwizard]

Thanks guys for the feedback


I've seen this issue addressed somewhere before, might have been in Thunder Fighter's build thread - just can't remember. But either way it is a good point worthy of being mentioned in the "build issues".


Wiz

[Thunder Fighter]

Yep, I am sure it is covered in my build thread.

I always use Epoxy and score/break the surface of the carbon and also clean up with alcohol to remove any oil or grease from the metal. I haven't had much experience with JB Weld as it hasn't been readily available in Australia (until now) but from what I read it is even better at this application than the 24 hour, hobby specific Epoxy that I use.

----Edit------

Here is the text from the build thread. Maybe it should be more explicit as a recommendation not to use CA, but as it is in the manual, I am sure people will continue to use it anyway.

The manual recommends using CA to attach the pushrod ends into the carbon tail rod but I prefer to use Epoxy for this type of job. Which ever glue you use, make sure you clean the parts well and to get rid of any oil and I roughen up the inside of the carbon rod a little before gluing. I like to run a thread into the plastic links before mounting them on the tail rod, otherwise if they are stiff it can cause you to break the glue bonds or scuff up the thread when trying to grip the rod with pliers.

//Dennis.

[SKYQUEST]

Originally Posted by popokatepetl

Please put this into the list as it's very important.

Use epoxy to glue the screw inserts to the tail rod which holds the ball links. Secure it by epoxy as much as possible.

Why? Friend of mine had a very bad crash recently so he had to buy a whole new kit! The screw which comes to the tail rod was secured by CA as said in manual but it looks like it's not sufficient. Then I advice everyone to use a lot of epoxy!

I mentioned this a little while ago. I glued mine like the old manual stated, but anyone who has used CF rods and drilled a hole in the middle for a threaded metal rod knows crazy glue is worthless for this application. The forces on the tail puch-rod are enormous at times.
When I first assembled my kit, the next day I did a tug test and both rods pulled out w/ little effort!!! So, yea, JB weld is a MUST...wouldnt you be really pissed if your goblin hit the ground at like 50mph all due to crazy glue? That would be crazy
Just to show JB welds strength, I recently had a hose clamp from my air intake on my Acura eventually rub a pin-hole through the metal high-side pressure line on the air conditioning. Needless to say, the refrigerant leaked out asap. Instead of getting a new $140 replacement line, i said, 'why not try JB weld and let it cure like the instructions say?' Well, it's still holding -200*F of refrigerant back, and the high-side can go up to 400psi on some cars (depending on how hot out it is.)
If it can hold that kind of abuse/forces, it is good enough for securing some items on this heli.

[ragge1]

I used CA and going stong
just one upgrade I'm waiting for , the quick release canopy mount

[Thunder Fighter]

There is also a difference between glues. For C.A. Crazy Glue is a low grade consumer brand, Loctite 401 is many time better as a glue, even though both are C.A. Glues.I still prefer hobby epoxy (or JB Weld epoxy) to glue metal to carbon.

//Dennis.

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by Thunder Fighter

There is also a difference between glues. For C.A. Crazy Glue is a low grade consumer brand, Loctite 401 is many time better as a glue, even though both are C.A. Glues.I still prefer hobby epoxy (or JB Weld epoxy) to glue metal to carbon.

//Dennis.

CA works best on two clean, flat and non-porous surfaces, the surfaces here are neither. Epoxy is certainly going to hold better, discovered the same thing with the pushrod on the mini protos (CA didnt even survive attachment of the links)

[gww528]

Originally Posted by desertstalker

CA works best on two clean, flat and non-porous surfaces, the surfaces here are neither. Epoxy is certainly going to hold better, discovered the same thing with the pushrod on the mini protos (CA didnt even survive attachment of the links)

Actually CA is going to work better on a porous surface. This will give it more gripping power. i.e. think glass vs wood, it will hold better on wood.

[windwizard]

UPDATED: PROJECT & BUILD "ISSUES" DATA BASE

SETUP DETAILS

Flight Style: Sport, Big Air n/a
Headspeed: 2094 power / 2178 general /2241cruising
Motor: Scorpion 4525-520 (92.8 % eff.) .............................................. $349.99
Motor lube Scorpion Motor Bearing Lubrication Kit......................... $5.00
Pulley: 21 Tooth (optional Pulley = 9.71:1)........................................ $16.00
FBL System: V-BAR Full size (blue) ver. - 5.2.................................... $319.99
Hyperion phase sensor............................................ .......................... $9.00
Governor: v-bar

BEC: Western Robotics Hercules Super BEC..................................... $100.00
Bec Adaptor (WR) Used for back-up battery pack.............................. $12.00
RX: (2 remotes) Spektrum DSMX Remote Receivers.......................... $70.00
BEC Backup Pack: 800 mAh NiMH buffer pack & charger................... $30.00
ESC: KONTRONICS Heli Jive 120+ HV(v11)......................................... $539.99
Kontronik Pro-disk Programming Card.............................................. . $128.00
Cyclic Servos: Outrage BL9180 (8.4v)............................................ ...... $380.00
Tail Servo: Outrage BL9188 (8.4v)............................................ ........... $138.00
Futaba replacement arms for Outrage servos # 04021........................ $17.00
(arms replaced due to tight fit next to servo support frame)

Servo Extension Tail servo............................................. .................... $2.00
Main Blades: 690mm Stock SAB n/a
Tail Blades: 115mm Stock SAB n/a
Lipos: 2nd choice Turnigy 35C 6S 5000mah(x2).................................. $120.00
Wire red 10 guage .................................................. ........................... $4.00
Wire black 10 guage............................................. .............................. $4.00
EC5 connectors For Battery Harness (4 set)......................................... $6.00
EC3 connectorsFor BEC (2set)............................................ .................. $2.50
M2.5x10 Screws (1bag)............................................ ............................ $4.00
(longer screws needed for mounting Torq servos)

Shrink tube (green)........................................... .................................. $15.00
Tri Flow synthetic grease with teflon............................................ ...... $10.00
Glue gun............................................... .............................................. $9.00
Shoe Goo............................................... ............................................. $6.00
Swashplate leveler (true-blood for trex 700 nitro)............................... $25.00
SAB GOBLIN 700 Flybarless Electric Helicopter Kit............................. $1000.00
MISC. COST FOR EXTRAS AND SHIPPING TAX................................... $75.00
___________
TOTAL $3422.00

__________________________________________________ _____________________________


Goblin "build issues" data-base.

HEADSPEED CALCULATIONS: (Calculator at readyheli.com)

http://www.readyheli.com/headspeed-calculator.html

It also includes the update/repair for the wrong gear ratios (listed in the 1.3V manual) showing the pinion drive gear having 19 teeth not the actual 20.

Example for a Scorpion 4525-520 motor

Result for calculation using 21 tooth (OPTIONAL) motor pulley

• (this will keep rpm's above head wobble zone)
• Estimated lowest voltage during flight: 42.00
• Lowest RPM (due to voltage and efficiency) : 2023
• For + performance, keep req. RPM below: 2094
• For target performance, keep req. RPM below: 2178
• For - performance, keep req. RPM below: 2241
• 21t = 9.71:1 gear ratio for headspeed calc.

Tech notes:

"Tips and tricks" video thread in SAB Forum covers the following...

• belt tensioning
• blade grip arm assembly
• gluing bolt to main gear for easy assembly

ALSO - See Mr Mels "V-BAR" video series in Mikado support area of Tech Forum.

Longer metal bolts needed for Outrage Torq servo mounting - Replacing the M2.5x8 screws with M2.5x10 screws

• Servo extension needed for tail servo as a "safety break away".
• Glue gun needed to glue servo cable to inner boom and to secure electrical. componant connectors into the" V-bar" recepticles (if using v-bar fbl system)

FRAME ISSUES

Manual 1.3 - page 26 recommends de-burring the edges of the carbon frame but this should be done as the "first order of business", not after the heli is almost fully assembled. All the CF frame pieces are extemely sharp and should be dulled - it is an easy job if completed prior to assembly.


MOTOR ISSUES

The motor shaft should be cut - required length is 28.5mm

If not cut, the maximum height of the battery is 50 mm

If you cut, then maximum Battery height is increased to 60mm

Maximum motor height is 68mm.

For greater motor height it's necessary to modify the opening in the canopy.

SAB GOBLIN USA - (In answer to my question) says..."Quantum 4530 is delta wound and there is no issue using Kontronik Jive ESC with it."

Align MX 700 is perfectly compatible

Scoprion 4035-560 is listed as a motor suitable for general flight in the Goblin
manual p28. but the mounting holes dont line up for all four screws and you will have to mount motor with only two screws! NOTE: (patern is 30mm spacing)

Scorpion 4525-520 Ultimate - mounting pattern matches the 4 bolt motor plate

Warning! check resistance from shaft to motor leads - should be infinite ohms. If not, the mounting screws could be too long touching motor windings, this could cause an ESC FIRE and failure in flight (This issue is a general warning not specific to the Goblin)


ROTOR-HEAD ASSEMBLY

Tech note from SAB - "Use the special washer(s), page 23, if you planning to run over 2000 HS (washer is circled on page 15 of manual 1.3)

The head is already assembled without the H232 part. (only for early kits)
If the headspeed is > 2000 rpm then the H232 part has to be added (pag 33).

In any case the blades have to be really tight (pag 33) and a small quantity of gear lube has to be added to the main gear.

These shims increase the damper preload therefore increasing head rigidity. Please make sure your main blades are tight on the grips, you should be able to violently jerk the head in both directions and the blades should not fold.

Failure to tighten the blades properly and/or run incorrect dampening preload can result in a boom strike.

If you remove the shims on the head you won't have any wobble issues at low headspeeds. Wobble present at 1900 rpm."

All later shipments of Goblins (after 1st batch) already have shims installed!


THRUST BEARINGS

Some are reporting that the Thrust bearing is bone dry, others reported bearing installed backwards.

Note: You must disassemble factory head to make sure everything is greased and loctite is applied properly.

SAB is recommending Tri-Flow clear synthetic (PTFE, Teflon) grease for thrust bearing/bearings . You should be able to get this at any bicycle shop.


MAINSHAFT

Vertical play in the mainshaft occuring due to factory hole being larger than retaining bolt that attaches collet to shaft.

This was "by design" to allow collet to be position to "take up" any axial/vertical slack in mainshaft, but the problem is that it also allows the collet to work its way down the shaft over time.

One solution mentioned...
Use align .5mm trex 700 main shaft washer in between collet and bearing, this will permanently fix it so that you need not relying on a friction fit of collet to hold the assembly in place. (I also did this and it worked great!)

http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-700-main-shaft-spacer-hn7075.html


DRIVE PULLEY WARNING (ALL 3 pulleys possibly)

SAB Goblin 700 Service Advisory #2 - (20th March 2012)

..."Despite extensive testing, it has come to our attention that one or two main drive pulleys (H0016) have had the pulley flange loosen from the pulley during flight.

We are working to rectify this problem, and have designed a new system to secure the flange to this pulley. Replacement pulleys will be shipping soon – if you have purchased a Goblin, please contact your dealer to arrange a replacement."

Others are now reporting crashes due to this problem and the same problem being found on the motor pulley and tail pully.

UPDATE: - SAB Repalacement Parts now avaliable!

Defective Tail drive Pulley REPLACEMENT FROM S.A.B.

37 Tooth [H0101-S]


36T (light weight version with larger inside flange)


NOTE: Replacement tail drive pulleys H0101-S has an extra tooth from origional. Was 36, now 37, for added tail authority.

But replacement tail drive pulley H0016 retains the origional 36 tooth count.

NOTE: NEW PULLEYS AVALIABLE

26 AND 27 tooth REINFORCED tail pulleys (pulley located in the very back)


Resource for pulleys - avaliable directly from SAB and Heli Direct!

http://www.goblin-helicopter.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pulley&x=0&y=0

http://helidirect.com/sab-new-heavy-duty-tail-pulley-26t-goblin-700-h0102-s-p-26612.hdx

CAUTION: Check that locktight is propery applied to all Pully Flange Bolts. Be careful not to over torque the small bolts. Flange bolts have been reported to fail during assembly, during flight and even one or two persons have mentionend that their flange bolts arrived in the kit broken! - ??? (Issue is ongoing as of 7-2012)

Post - "Use a screwdriver style "Driver" and 2 fingers to tighten flange bolts, stop when the bolts are snug letting the green locktight do its job. People sometimes apply way to much force when securing small screws."


PULLEY SHAFT (Z60)

Z60 pulley shaft must have a little up & down play in the range of 0.2-0.8 mm, Confirmed by SAB Tech Dept.


SECONDARY SHAFT BOLT FAILURE

"Advisory notice to all, the "pinion to shaft" bolt on the secondary shaft.
(The upper one above the slanted pinion Z20) failed in flight on my Goblin.

...I have replaced all these with Align 500 head bolts . The bolt that holds the 500 head to the main shaft. It's a perfect fit and has shoulder the whole way through the pinion gear, it works perfect - will not break."


Drive Shaft Bolts - WARNING!

There have been reports of bolt failures of those being used to secure pinions, gears and pulleys.

Best Practice:
Replace ALL shaft bolts with appropriately sized "shouldered" bolts.

SAB announcement - (on their website 4-10-12)
..." We will replace all the bolts and send to distributors in about a week.
New kits will have new shouldered bolts. All of our bolts are DIN 12.9,
highest quality bolts and screws.

Alternative resource for shouldered bolts if your cannot wait for SAB

http://www.alignrcusa.com/index.php?...oducts_id=2385


ONE -WAY BEARING

Posted - "Brass surrounding one way seized on intermediate shaft.
Took it apart and sanded/cleaned and oiled, all good now.
Another post - "One way" was dry as a sun baked bone, needed grease."

Best Practice: The One Way Bearing should be greased during build!

UPDATE: Upgraded Tripple Bearing 60T Pulley with "One Way" bearing avaliable for Goblin 700 for better auto rotations. (7-10-12)

http://helidirect.com/sab-new-upgrade-tripple-bearing-60t-pulley-goblin-630700h0104-s-p-27404.hdx



TENSIONING SPRING - (tail drive and main drive)

Tail belt tensioning spring is not symmetrical, the length of the bends on the end are different. The short end goes up and the other end goes down, (the shorter side on the support, the longer on the arm.) SAB has updated later manuals.

NOTE: The spring may be secured even better with a dab of epoxy in mounting hole.

Drive Belt Tensioning Spring - Also could use a tiny dab of epoxy to glue the Drive Belt tensioning springs into the motor mount, - it just makes mounting the motor unit that much easier.


DRIVE BELT LIFE?

Depends on the type of flight ...average is over 100 flights
Belt care - (main and tail)... Food Grade Silicon Spray works well to lubricate belts.

Post: We have found that the main belt needs to be re-adjusted after the first few flights and even again after 5-10 more. Otherwise it will become loose and eat the teeth right off of the belt.


BATTERIES

Use Velcro to help hold batteries in tray – (back of tray is open)

One lockstrap per battery in conjunction with O-rings may help save batteries from suffering cuts from upper edges of frame. (As has been reported by 3-D pilots)

Battery Tray can be installed in one of two positions to allow for slightly larger batteries if necessary. (keeping in mind to cut the motor shaft as stated above.)


CANOPY TIPS

May have to ream out mounting holes to make them line up correctly

Use the foam pieces pushed out from the blade holder to make the canopy fit without sliding to one side. Measure and cut two pieces off with the rounded sides glued to the canopy.

Duct tape inside of canopy over mounting holes to strengthen
canopy from cracking when flexing during removal and mounting

Canopy modification to minimize stress damage: (install 5/16 gromets)

I Had to ream out the canopie holes just a bit. With the new gromets mounted on the canopy they slipped over the face of the mounting studs and push into position with a little finger pressure. You still get 2 3/4 turns on the threaded fasteners as they thread tight against the gromets.

One detail - you need to ream the holes in the canopy large enough to allow the gromets to expand just a little bit for when you push them into position over the top portion of the mounting studs.

..




Update: SAB canopy grommet now avaliable - ( # HA111)



Canopy placement and removal tip

Always put the swash all the way down. Grip links facing front and back. Very easy to slide on the canopy that way - otherwise it can be a real fight!


BOOM QUALITY

Some booms needed to be sprayed by local body shop with
a 2 pass clear coat.

I buffed with a polymer treatment product to make the matt finish
shine like it was clear coated

Newer Booms are now "flawless"


FLYBAR SENSOR POSITION

A FBL sensor does not need to be centred on the heli, it just needs to be square to the mainshaft and centerline of the heli. it is important that leads has some flex in it so as to not transfer any vibrations into the sensor.


SWASH-PLATE QUALITY

Swash has a little vertical float to the centern ball. Turns out that
“I2 Swashes” are built with the same loose ball and are very good
swashes - should not be an issue.


TAILBOOM WARNING WARNING!

Check clearance between the blade at "0 pitch" and top of boom.
Min. distance is 145 cm, if less, - add "TAPE" under nylon bolts.

FAILURE to rectify this issue may allow for a boom strike!!
Please review the video linked below for specifics on addressing this isssue.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=395680

"Shoe Goo" the servo lead (servo inside the boom) down and tape lead to servo, (glue gun application are already being reported to not stick long term to the
inside of the boom)

NYLON BOLT WARNING!

Don't over tighten your nylon tail mounting bolts or they will snap!
Post - "I snapped one off with the supplied wrench! Just get it snug,
the carbon plate on top will hold it in place,"

Home Depot - sells nylon bolts that fit perfectly in case SAB nylon bolts snap.


BOOM SPACER - Failure

Don't overtighten, and may want to consider not using CA but rather use epoxy
Post - "I epoxied that sucker to the side of the boom. CA is worthless on metal, it
will come loose"


BALL LINK ISSUES

Blank side of the ball link is pressed onto the ball- SAB stamp faces out.
Ball links are tight, will have to wear in- if too tight then ream them out


SERVO INSALLATION AND RELATED ISSUES

Servos for swash must be installed using spacers provided (For Mikado and
Outrage servos (rubber and carbon fiber) this will require 2.5mmx10mm screws

Servo arms with "Torqs servos" need to be replaced with mikado or Futabas - both work perfectly on my Torque 9180s.

..."I got the proper resolution from my Vbar and also the arm spacing put the links as vertical as I could measure them. The red also matched the servo color (futaba arms). part numbers liste on first post."


TAIL SETUP ISSUES

Post - "Tail rotor stalling due to over inducing pitch -…We reduced the travel to 20 deg Left and 30 deg right, which resulted in a more even VBar setting of 76 and 74.

Please note that the tail servo endpoints are at 76 and 74 and as this is below what Mikado recommends, it still works perfectly. One cannot get the servo arm shorter due to the fixed position of the push rod guide and any shorter on the servo arm results in a push rod that binds in the guide."

General consensus is to add pitch mechanically 3 or 4 deg. (for hover) and set servos centered and pitch arms at 90 for the rest of v-bar setup.

There is a slight amount of radial play in the tail grips because of the thrust bearings

Tail thrust bearing (factory assembled) -dry as a bone without grease.

BEST PRACTICE: Disassemble factory tail to make sure all is greased and that loctite is applied properly.

Flanged bearings - Check the flanged bearings (HC414-S) in your tail side plate / fin! They came loose in some machines and made a strange noise. A little bit of CA and everything was ok,

TAIL CONTROL ROD

Use epoxy to glue the screw inserts to the tail rod which holds the ball links. Securing with epoxy rather than CA will give a stronger connection. Also, scuff surface of inner rod prior to epoxy application. (Some crashes have been reported due to this issue)

...Logo 600 CF tail control rod is longer than stock goblin rod and can be used to make a precision cut and fitted rod, (should be long enough to allow the servo to be turned 180 to allow servo cable to be positioned more accurately away from the tail belt as well)


MAINGEAR BREAK-IN (forum opinions)

Manual specs...
"A lite lubricant such as WD-40 is recommended for break-in to allow gears to seat properly since there is no lash spacing on the goblin."

A more effective lubricant will only prolong the break-in period. (Normally 5- 10 flights)

WARNING: concerningn main-gear break-in.
From experience: (as stated on the forum)

"I did not use WD-40 as recommended by SAB. Instead I used triflow synthetic grease --> big mistake. The grease + black gear powder (from initial wearing) + dirt gummed up and together this combination somehow has worn the gear so quickly that after 10 flights, I already have tons of backlash which is definitely NOT good.

Replaced the maingear with a new one and used WD-40 for BREAK-IN --> great success. After a few flights, WD-40 flew away and the gear backlash has been perfect!"


Premature Drive Pinion Failure:

Main Drive Pinion (Aluminum)

Multiple sources are reporting extensive wear appearing on the pinion gear as early as 40 to 50 flights! Various lubrication attempts are seemily not the answer with limited success being reported.

SAB SOLUTION... "Steel pinions will be available soon, look for them at distribution locations around 2nd week in July" (Bert K. 6/18/12)

SAB NOTE: STEEL PINION GEAR "BREAK-IN" PROCEEDURE

"No break-in required with steel pinion, no grease or oil needed either" (Bert Kammerer 6/19/12)



GEAR RATIO ERROR IN MANUAL 1.3 – REVISION BELOW

In the manual, the helical pinion (up top) is a 19 tooth gear, but in reality it is 20 tooth

Corrected ratios for calculating head speed

16 TOOTH PINION = 12.75
18 TOOTH PINION = 11.33
19 TOOTH PINION = 10.74
20 TOOTH PINION = 10.20
21 TOOTH PINION = 9.71
22 TOOTH PINION = 9.27
23 TOOTH PINION = 8.87
24 TOOTH PINION = 8.50
26 TOOTH PINION = 7.85


SAB ADDRESSES "NOTED CONCERNS" BY
CONSOLIDATING MULTIPLE MOD.'S INTO THE
CURRENT KIT.

The following picture serves as a great "quick reference" for all early kit recipiants who want an overview of every part that they should replace with avaliable upgrades.




ESC INSTALLATION (heli jive 120)

NOTE: Sideplate on heli must come off - or stall build untill ESC is mounted if mounting Heli Jive with pre-installed heatsink.

Best practice for ESC mounting: Use the Base Plate as a heat sink!
Use heat-sink compound or heat-sink tape
and heat rated tie-wraps and don't use Jive with pre-installed heat sink,
Clean and simple.

Thermal tape resource:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/37..._148_0012.html


KONTRONIC ESC…

· Heli jive 120 + (+ means more output with cooling)

· Latest version is 11.0

· KSA mode not used with scorpion motor

· Mode 8 updated to work with V-bar external governor

Disconnet red power lead (patch cable between esc and v-bar) if using a separate external BEC Approved to work with V-bar

· Home page has a support and news tab – both are useful

· Newer programming disk – available if needed

· Bail out funct. used with throttle hold set at 40% with full resume for 15 sec.

Heli Jive notes regarding Scorp. 4525-520 ultimate
stick to mode 4 or 5
21 tooth pulley if you want headspeeds of 2200+
20 tooth pulley if you want headspeeds 2000-2200.
The H-jive works best with throttle between 65 and 70,
The H-Jive sweetspot is 65-70 it says so clearly in the manual
Decrease pulley to 20 tooth will bring your throttle up to around 58-72. Much less work for all the electronics and better results

SAB - say's to run first flights at 1700-1800 for breaking in gears.

Sidenote: If you are flying at low rpm (less than about 2000/2100 rpm) it is always recommended to use the tail pulley with 26 teeth.


MIKADO V-Bar

· full size 5.2– (blue) – more resistant to vibration than the black one

· Requires 2 spectrum satellite receivers

· Small emergency battery suggested (5 cell NiCd/NiHM 8v) charges off BEC

· Pro software upgrade (after purchase – later on)

· Western Robotics "HAS NOW" released a "Buffer Adapter" that will allow their super bec to work with emergency battery pack to power Vbar and servos.

Mikado and Kontronics have partnered togather to allow programing
VBAR v5.2 and heli jive v11.0 setup to be very straight forward - yea!


Wiring diagram (my general scheme)




Landing Skids Modifications:

Rubber trim application:

Skid project details at the the following thread.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=400609

Build thread short-cut

Thunder fighter did such a great job, I didn't want all his valuable work to get lost in the archives of post dated threads. - Check out his build procedure below...

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=391487

Build Video short-cut

Here is the best time lapse build vid. out there - in my opinion.

YouTube

YouTube

Wiz

[Dardiry]

Thanks for great post - but i have one question, am thinking to get Skookum 720, would it work with no issues with Jive 120 HV and Quantum motor?

Cheers,

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by Dardiry

Thanks for great post - but i have one question, am thinking to get Skookum 720, would it work with no issues with Jive 120 HV and Quantum motor?

Cheers,

No reason it shouldn't.

[crf69]

wow....

i have alot of homework to do if i get the goblin.

[SKYQUEST]

NYLON BOLT WARNING!

Don't over tighten your nylon tail mounting bolts or they will snap!
Post - "I snapped one off with the supplied wrench! Just get it snug,
the carbon plate on top will hold it in place,"

Home Depot - sells nylon bolts that fit perfectly in case SAB nylon bolts snap.

Ok, I crashed. It's posted below somewhere.
In a nut-shell, where exactly in Home Depot are these? What are these used for on other applications? I went to 2 Home Depots and 1 Loews...nada. No one knew what I was talking about either. I looked in hardware, paint and plumbing.
I only ask man because I literally remember reading that statement in ur sticky a while back. I checked back for the latest update and its still there. So, i ventured out to look for these as they are only sold in packs of 4 @HD, and you have to buy a pack of 4 nuts and a pack of 4 bolts. HD is wack when it comes to this part...almost makes you buy $8 +ship if you need both nuts and bolts.

[Mystic3D]

How many $ in gas did you burn driving all over trying to save $8.00, I know prob principle not wanting pay $8.00 for a bolt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[windwizard]

Sorry to hear about your crash...and the "wild goose chase" that you have been on trying to aquire new nylon bolts.

I will check for myself at our local Home Depot for the continued avaliability of this item.

In the mean time, for what it is worth, any time in the past when I have purchased nylon bolts they were found in the "electrical inventory" section of the supply store.

From my experience, most often these bolts are used as "stand-offs" to secure backplates in electrical control boxes for the purpose of ground isolation of electronic circuits.


Wiz

[windwizard]

nine

[windwizard]

and ten,

(sorry but I must re-post "Data Base" for any future editing)

at the top of the next page...