Is a bigger heli more dangerous to a noob?

[kumar2494]

I am doing a research paper about this topic for my english class and will be happy to post it once im done.

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by kumar2494

I am doing a research paper about this topic for my english class and will be happy to post it once im done.

That would be great.
Thanks
Rick

[Mustang Fever]

There's a temptation to just jump in a fly, without a complete understanding of how a heli should be set up. I suspect this is what happened to Addidis' friend.

The information is available. There's really no excuse for not researching the subject and learning what needs to be known to be safe.

Trying to properly setup a heli without the correct tools is right up there with not having the knowledge to do it. Big or small, if the heli is set up correctly, it isn't going to be spooky and dangerous.

Big helis can be safely flown in some wind. Small helis can be difficult to control under such conditons. It's up to the pilot to assess the conditions and to immediately land if the heli can't handle the wind.

[Heli-opolis]

I'm torn on this issue. I don't think there is one single answer.

I think we can all agree that for some would-be pilots, no heli is safe as they'd be just a likely to poke someone's eye out with a paper airplane.

For those with a good mentor/instructor or team to back them up, the larger the wallet can afford, the better. I started out on .60 nitro's but then again I started flying 20 years ago in Japan in a club that had a number of Team Futaba and Team Hirobo members so I couldn't have asked for more in that regard.

For the average Joe that has some level of respect for what could happen if they screw up, a smaller bird may be better because they are likely to progress faster with more flight time available due to more locations they can fly and so progress out of the 'danger zone' of noobiness faster.

All of that is why my response to the poll was, 'Not sure' because the biggest uncertainty is the pilot-to-be.

[flyinghigh450]

Originally Posted by Laurens

Thats true, also thats the reason why I voted No on this poll. People with common sense can learn better with a 600 sized heli, and its not necessary more dangerous than something smaller.

+1 ..

[Mustang Fever]

Absolutely.

[kumar2494]

Here is the paper I wrote for my english class about this this topic:


There is a very large debate, especially on the online forums, that there is a direct relationship between the danger of remote control helicopter and its size, especially in the hands of a beginner. After some research, I have concluded that the majority of r/c heli pilots believe the larger the heli is, the more dangerous it is. This makes sense, as physics states the more mass and velocity an object has, the more inertia it has. However, blade size, weight and velocity are also factors that play a part in the danger of r/c helicopters.

Many people, including myself, believe that a larger r/c helicopter is more dangerous to a beginner, to an extent. One could make the argument that “a bigger heli will more likely badly hurt someone if it hits them” (helifreak.com). However, people who do not believe this can argue “Larger helis are more stable and easier to fly so you are less likely to crash or hit yourself or others with them” (helifreak.com). Each side has a valid argument, but what is categorized as a large or small helicopter? I believe that any helicopter size 450 and smaller can be categorized as a relatively small helicopter and any helicopter size 550 and over is a large helicopter. A 500 size heli is in the middle, but more towards the smaller side.

Furthermore, rotor blade speed and weight has to be taken into account. For example, a 700 size heli has a headspeed generally between 2400 and 1900 RPM and the blades usually weigh between 160 and 190 grams. A 500 size heli has a headspeed around 2800 RPM and a blade weight of around 100 grams. A 250 on the other hand can have a headspeed of up to 5000 RPM, and a blade weight of only around 7 grams per blade. As you can see, the smaller the size of the heli, the less the blades weigh, but the higher the headspeed is. So, is it better to get hit with a 700 swinging 175 gram blades at 2100 RPM, or a 250 spinning blades with 1/25 the weight but more than twice the headspeed? In my opinion, it is better to get hit with a smaller heli, simply because the kinetic energy is lower in a smaller heli. Also, people know better than to get in the flight path of a 700. A member on helifreak.com stated that he blocked a 450 flying at him with his leg to keep it from hitting another item. I highly doubt anyone would do the same with a 700 which weighs around 12 lbs and has nearly a 5 foot rotor span. As stated by another helifreak.com member put it this way: “a 450 will hurt you, a 500 will send you to the ER, a 600 will send you to the ICU, and a 700 can send you to your grave.” Keep in mind, the way the model is powered is a small factor, but a factor none the less. While a 700 with a .90 size nitro engine struggles to get past 3.5 horsepower, the same size heli powered by a brushless electric motor can achieve 10 or more horsepower with greater torque.

The relationship between the size of the model versus the stability must also be discussed. Generally, the larger the heli is, the more stable it is. This factor will help a beginner keep the helicopter in one spot when learning to hover. However, with the invention of flybarless controllers, especially the few which feature flybar simulation, helicopters have become much more stable. A flybarless 450 can now be as stable as a flybarred 600. This also provides convenience for practicing maneuvers. Beginners can now practice hovering in their yard with a 450, rather than having to go to a flying field to be able to practice the same maneuver with a larger helicopter, as they had to do in the past with a flybarred heli. However, a beginner who flies flybarless helicopters should be experienced with setups, because if it is programmed wrong, it can become extremely dangerous.

Another argument on the forums is that if a beginner has common sense, they should start flying a 600 size heli, because of its stability and price. But at what stage should this beginner be at before they start flying a 600 or similar size heli, and how much common sense should this person have? I believe the beginner who starts flying a large model should be comfortable with hovering at least a coaxial heli, and familiar with forward flight. And the common sense that the person has should be less like a spectator thinking “that thing looks cool, but a little unsafe”, and more like “this highly precise machine commands the utmost respect”.

Being hit by any size r/c helicopter is not fun, and even a 250 is capable of cutting to the bone, which can cause a person to bleed out, but it is more likely with a larger model. RC Heli Magazine published an article about a man who was flying his 700 which went out of control due to an electrical failure, and he was hit and cut in the chest, leg and shoulder. He sustained a serious cut which required multiple stitches, several superficial cuts which also required some stitches, but were not as deep. He also needed surgery on all of the cuts, because the blades, which are made from carbon fiber, shattered when he was hit, causing carbon fiber splinters to become lodged in the cuts. Carbon fiber is a carcinogen, so the doctors could not just stitch him up. He also stated in the article that his wife had to drop him off at the emergency room because they saw smoke coming from their yard as they left the house. The helicopter’s LiPo batteries caught fire, which could have caused collateral damage. This incident was not caused by the pilot, who was experienced, but it goes to show how dangerous these models can be.

The following topic does not relate specifically to beginners, but shows the complacency that some people have around these models. With r/c helicopters becoming more and more popular, manufacturers are making helicopters built for purposes other than just flying. Recently, some r/c heli manufacturers have been selling helicopters built specifically for carrying camera gear and filming equipment (VRC article). These are highly specialized, 700 to 800 size machines. Some commercial and film companies have been using these machines to help with filming in tricky angles and tight spaces where full scale filming helicopters cannot maneuver. These helicopters are being flown in close proximity to the crew, and sometimes even directly above peoples’ heads. The damage these helicopters could do if there was an electrical or mechanical failure, or pilot error would be catastrophic.

All remote control helicopters are inherently dangerous and should be handled and flown with the utmost respect. R/c helicopters can cause major damage to people and property, especially when in the hands of a beginner, and having that respect can only be learned by experience and visualization of what these extraordinary machines are truly capable of. This reason and many others show that it is wrong to let a beginner fly a large helicopter.

[Mustang Fever]

Very well done, Kumar. Let us know what grade you get.

I think the key is in your 5th paragraph, about commonsense. This is the key to a beginner's progression. Any newb with an iota of commonsense will do as much research as possible as he progresses.

As I progressed: coaxial to Blade CP to 450 clone to 700; I browsed a lot for helicopter "flight instruction" information. Among the things I learned was how to know you're in trouble, not being shy about admitting you're in trouble, and what to do when all that becomes apparent. As I recall, it was: let go of the cyclic, grab some altitude and get the nose out.

This routine has twice prevented me from getting socked by my 700. Both times it was coming at me because I was disoriented, and both times I sailed it harmlessly over my head, regained orientation, and kept on flying.

You're right on the money about the complacency that's developing. When the FAA publishes UAV rules, I hope they include the basic AMA safety tenets. Yeah, right.

[rdlohr]

Nice job! Hope that gets you an A+.


The game changer for me is helis like the mCPX. With practically no safety risk you can learn the basics of control then quickly transition to a bigger more stable heli. Seems like the best of both worlds.

Rick

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

I realize that we will never convince you that the physics involved dictate that the larger a heli is, the more dangerous it is

There is more than just that to it. A larger object (of any sort) is always more frail, and that definitely includes helicopters. I have crashed my MCP X dozens of times. The cost? $0. None of the crashes were due to instability on the part of the chopper, and had I had the same crashes with a 600, it would have cost $thousands. Crashes with a 600 may be less frequent, but they *DO* happen, and I can point you to some video of crashes by the very most experienced and capable RC heli pilots on the planet flying 500+ choppers. Even when the crashes are in no way a pilot's fault (or maybe especially when they are not the pilot's fault), they are extremely disheartening to a novice. A pro, through long experience, will be much better equipped to take them in stride.

Originally Posted by oy2503

I didn't really get started until I bought two Align 450's.

I'm sure maybe you think that, but as I pointed out in another post, it is very easy in any learning endeavor to feel one has not progressed at all, when in fact the opposite is true. I hear it all the time from my SCUBA students, and I have felt it myself. An objective measure, however, almost inevitably tells a very different story.

Originally Posted by oy2503

Cheap to crash - if it should happen (it didn't, really).

Now that is just nonsense. No significant crash with a 600 or even a high end 450 is ever going to come off as "cheap".

I reiterate, I have crashed my MCP X nearly as many times as I have flown it, and I have yet to spend a single penny on repair. OTOH, my T-Rex 450 has only had one flight, lasting less than 45 seconds, and even using bargain parts to repair, it cost about $70. That is a lot of money for 45 seconds worth of flight. Again, the crash was not due to twitchiness, instability, or an equipment failure. It was not due to flying beyond my capabilities or any attempt at acrobatic flight. It was due, purely and simply to a mistake. It wasn't even a mistake of intent. It was a mistake of simply pushing the stick the wrong way. I thought very clearly in my mind, "Push the elevator forward". While I was making the move, and even before the crash occurred, I realized I had inexplicably pulled back on the stick. The result, of course was a tail strike resulting in a shattered rotor blade, a thoroughly mangled head, a stripped main gear, a stripped collective servo gear, a bent front tail drive shaft, a tail boom that approximated a pretzel, and an exploded tail rotor assembly.

Originally Posted by oy2503

Parts could easily be had from a number of shops.

At the cost of between one and several hours worth of labor to replenish the cash and perhaps up to several more hours repairing the chopper. Some of us consider the repairs to be an enjoyable aspect of the hobby. Others do not.

When one speaks of the "danger" of a certain size of helicopter, certainly the most important category is the risk of trauma to human beings, followed by collateral damage to vehicles, structures, or even other RC aircraft. (I once accidentally dropped a Walkera 400 Coax chopper on a Blade 120SR, breaking the landing gear of the 120SR.) The latter seems to be ignored, but it is a genuine risk, especially with a 600 or larger. It is definitely not impossible to do several thousand dollars damage to someone's house or car with a 700 or 800.

Beyond those serious risks are further very real risks, however. One is to the wallet. Even flying only 400 and smaller choppers (right down to ultra-micros), I have managed to chalk up a fair amount of repair costs, and right down to the two tiny Blade Scouts I own, there are only three choppers on which I have had no repair costs. Anyone who says, "It's only money" either inherited great wealth or else simply has failed to consider that after taxes, insurance, mortgage, power, medical, automotive, and food costs, the average American works probably close to a week or even more to earn $100 in discretionary funds. That is a week of no doubt difficult labor added to one's employment time and removed from one's leisure time. It is not trivial.

Finally, there is the risk to the hobby and the potential hobbyist. After buying $3000 worth of helicopter and turning it into a pile of pick-up sticks is not the right time for someone who has never before held a transmitter in his hand to find out he should never have spent the money in the first place. On the other side of that coin the inevitable crashes, probably mostly at the very outset of one's experience, could easily dissuade someone who might very well in time become an expert pilot when they are accompanied by big repair bills. When I crashed my T-Rex, I won't quite say I felt like crying, but I surely was not smiling. When I crash one of my $50 choppers, I laugh out loud.

For those of you who talk so ardently about a 600+ being the only reasonable way to learn how to fly, I am reminded of something my brother pointed out after haveing visited Las Vegas. Many of the people at the $100+ tables would look down on the people playing the $1 and $2 tables and machines, but if one looked around at the $100 tables, everyone looked as if someone had (or was about to ) shoot their dog. Meanwhile, at the low dollar tables everyone was laughing, hollering, and whooping it up. So those steely-eyed, sweating, nervous high rollers were having fun?

I've seen lots and lots of videos of experienced RC pilots wrecking their aircraft, and in almost every case where the heli was 600 or larger, they did not laugh. More often than not, the crash is accompanied by an anguished, "Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!". Tell me again about the fun part of flying a $3000 RC helicopter, will you?

This is a hobby, folks. It is supposed to be fun, not deadly serious. I am not saying no one should ever try to play with what amounts to a flying guillotine. I am saying that unless one is a fool, one must needs realize that it is indeed in essence a flying guillotine and that there is a certain necessary reduction in jockularity that absolutely must accompany that realization, or else. I am also saying that it is highly irresponsible to suggest anyone should be at the controls of a flying guillotine unless appropriate safety measures are in place, and at the very top of that list is experience. Suggesting someone who has never so much as plugged in an RC battery should go out unsupervised and start plunging around the countryside with a giant, unprotected food processor is just insane. Suggesting that one may move up very quickly to a larger chopper in order to facilitate a smoother learning path is one thing, but by definition that excludes "noobs".

[Tom-jack]

Hi I keep trying the web master with limited help.....I now know to use the blue botton that indicates "new thread". Where is the blue button to post a question?

Im trying to post a question on the "tarot zyx gyro setup" very frustrated!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you in advance

[hifinsword]

I think a fairly commonly accepted way of assessing risk of injury or anything else is to combine the 2 factors of frequency and severity. I have a high frequency of crashing my 120SR. The severity of injuries I've sustained have been minimal - a few nicks and bruises. If I were to fly a larger machine (which I don't yet own), while I am still a noobie (remember the question this thread is based on) I would imagine my frequency of crashes would be low due to all the reasons that have been posted on here, ie. easier to master/control, etc., less likely to do risky manuevers for fear of crashing and resultant cost, etc.

But when I do crash, NOT IF, WHEN, there will be severe damage to something or someone. As a noobie, a larger machine is more dangerous just due to the severity of the inevitable crash a newbie will experience.

If you want to argue about the overall dangerousness of large vs small machines in the hobby overall, that's a different question. And that would take into account all the things that are done to alleviate the chances of crashing (training, controlled airfields, buddy wires, etc) and their impact on surroundings and onlookers when they do. But that was not the question this thread was based on. Don't worry, I'll be sticking to my 120 for quite awhile.

[lrhorer]

Yeah, that is dead-on, if you ask me.

[DominicD]

Originally Posted by Tom-jack

Hi I keep trying the web master with limited help.....I now know to use the blue botton that indicates "new thread". Where is the blue button to post a question?

Im trying to post a question on the "tarot zyx gyro setup" very frustrated!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you in advance

Bottom left of every post is a "post reply" and the bottom right is a "quick reply" button.

[TowPilot]

Originally Posted by Tom-jack

Hi I keep trying the web master with limited help.....I now know to use the blue botton that indicates "new thread". Where is the blue button to post a question?

Im trying to post a question on the "tarot zyx gyro setup" very frustrated!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you in advance

And you are talking about making a new thread in a different forum.

To post a thread with question about the Tarot ZYX, go to the forum called:

Flybarless Helicopter Systems
https://www.helifreak.com/forumdisplay.php?f=93

In that forum, then use the New Thread button on the upper right, just above the red menu bar.

That opens a new thread in the Flybarless Helicopter Systems forum.
Use a title on the new thread that describes your question so that people what kind of help you need.

If you need further help with the board, please make a new thread in the;
HeliFreak Website Help and Suggestions
https://www.helifreak.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

Hope that helps,
Mike

[WillJames]

Originally Posted by Tom-jack

Hi I keep trying the web master with limited help.....I now know to use the blue botton that indicates "new thread". Where is the blue button to post a question?

Im trying to post a question on the "tarot zyx gyro setup" very frustrated!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you in advance

This link below has all the info about general forum usage and how to post, reply etc.

https://www.helifreak.com/faq.php?fa...b3_board_usage

[Sabaot]

Voted YES. Big helis are more dangerous.

Sure bigger ones are more stable, take less from wind, it's easier to determine where is front when heli flies away.

BUT...

...when you are noob (I prefer newb term, this shows lack of experience while noob inclines that someone is still bad and refuses to learn despite experience), so when you are newb you may commit many mistakes that can hurt you. And bigger heli hurts more.

Simple example. Newb buys rtf 600. He doesn't know that he must check screws for thread lock. He unpacks and start to fly. Luckily heli is properly set up and able to hover. Mid flight it's torn apart due to lack of screw glue.
Question: which heli inflict more damage: 450 or 600?

Another example: newb sets up pitch curves, blades must be on. He doesn't know that he should disconnect motor, enable TH and double check for throttle reverse.
Question: which blades will inflict more injuries: 450 or 600?

Final example: newb built and set up whole heli, now tries first flights. Due to nervous reactions he looses control and heli smashes into something.
Question: which will inflict more damage: 450 with it's 750grams or 600 with its 4-5kg?

[seanh]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

[desertstalker]

Originally Posted by seanh

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Nope, thats just your heli falling

[seanh]

, So you have been watching me!