New Pantera, engine trouble...

[rhinoceros55]

I really need some help here! Finished my new Pantera and it's awesome! I installed a used OS50 hyper of unknown usage. Also fitted with a Carbsmart to control high speed needle. I have the same setup in my trex 600n and the middle range of the needle valve in that bird is about 1 turn out, so when flying it hard it richens up to about 1.20 open and when I land and do a backplate temp check, I can go 5 seconds with no discomfort.

So onto my troubles at hand with the pantera engine setup. I originally set the needle at a midpoint of 1.25 open for the carbsmart and set temp target to 110C. At a headspeed of 1850, my engine stopped in a hover after about 1.5 minutes. I opened the needle to 1.5 open, hovered with nice smoke, but the carbsmart had the needle cranked full rich at about 1.70 open just hovering. So I landed and opened the needle abit more for middle range. Seems slobbering rich of course, did some mild 3d including tictocs to try to load the engine, then promptly landed to do a backplate temp check again. The carbsmart again was trying for more richening of the needle and the backplate was smoking hot with maybe a 1 second touch. What the hell?

I am not new to helis, as this makes a third 50 nitro and 3 electrics in the lineup. Im not turning the needle valve screw the wrong way. Its guzzling glow bigtime, but still getting hot. (30% Magnum heli fuel) The engine doesn't sound like the bearings are noisy, but I don't know its history either. I disassembled the carb tonight hoping to find brittle crusty o-rings, but they were perfect and the carb was sparkling clean. The heli is setup for -11+11 and tached in at 1850 and 1950 for stunt. Everything is silky smooth mechanically, not binding. Ambient temps here were around 90F during the flight testing.

I am thinking of the possibility that the crankshaft or bearings may have damage, but I have never had these issues so how to know. However, the power train seems smooth and fuel is not vibing in the tank. Just seems way too rich on the needle, but backplate is still super hot and the power in flight trails off in a hurry when pushed. Also check for leaky fuel system and they are tight. Thanks for pondering a possible solution to this headache! In your experience, is cooling adequate for the pantera in general with a perfect engine? Just wondering.

[Pinecone]

Each engine/carb will tune differently.

With an engine new to you, start with the needle at the book starting setting, and then tune. Once you get it tuned, THEN enable the mixture control.

[Mr.HillBilly]

Do like Pinecone said, shut off the mix control until you get it running right then turn it back on. I have never run the newer OS 50s but I was thinking the mid. is 1 turn, HS is 2 turns out for setup.

Also if you have a gov. shut him down and do some full power climbs to get it tuned better.

I think all your problem is, is that you have too many electronics running when still setting up. Also I have never had any luck with the Magnum fuels, do you have another fuel you could try, others have had good luck with it, but I have always run hot with it.

[The Dude II]

As mentioned...simplify the setup...get the Carb-smart out of the equation for now.

OS. #8 plug???

I've run hypers with "noisy" bearings...engine still runs with power OK...other than the "growl" and really crappy idle. (and the needle didn't change)

Needle...each engine/bird/muffler/fuel/plug will be slightly different.

I run CY-30%, #8 and the same HS & ProMufflerII...idle needle is maybe 10 degrees lean from center and high needle is ~ 1 -5/8 open.

You technique of temp sounds good...same application of tough-finger used here.

[rhinoceros55]

Hi guys, thanks for the thoughtful responses that were all helpful. Just got back in from the field and heres the report. I disconnected the carbsmart power and reinstalled the needle detent spring clip on the engine. Opened the needle to the manuals recommended 1.5 out and hovered for about 2 minutes at 1850 headspeed. Nice smoke with no flame out this time. I hit idle up to 1950 and started pumping the collective while noting the smoke was still rich enough. Gaining confidence that the engine seemed happy I started doing some stationary tumbles and some really ugly tic tocs and the engine just purred. No head loading noted here either. I finished off the remainder of the tank flying with controlled reckless abandon (dichotomy) and had a freaking blast. This was my 4th full flight, but really my first with how this sweet animal is supposed to perform. I only had time to fly the Pantera once, and the trex600n once just to form a direct comparison. With both machines set up for aggressive 3d, the Pantera wins the smooth operator award completely. Trex is a bit more agile and twitchy. Both machines have their place in the world and I'll enjoy feeding them both a steady diet of nitro.
I may fiddle around the carbsmart after I experiment a little with a few more clicks to lean it out. It was a guzzling that big tank pretty quickly compared to the 600n. On that bird with a header installed I can fly in idle up2 the entire flight cranking at 2100rpms for 9 minutes without touching the header tank. As a side note, if I gain access to a temp gun, what is an ideal backplate temp? Or do you guys just fly and not worry about the numbers as long as the smoke is good and run is strong? Just want you to know I appreciate your helpful responses once again. R

[billm]

Funny you should ask about head temp. I have been playing around with the same question for several years. Before I got my MultiGov Pro I shooting the head with Pirometer around 200 and all was happy. I have been a bit shy with the MGP and just last week bumped up the set point to 210 and WOW!
I always dial my ships in without all the electronic stuff and go old skew untill the ship is happy. Then I start adding the bling. One by one.

[jbeech]

225-250° in the glow plug hole is about perfect.

[billm]

WOW, That hot JB? I have been shooting the Hyper with a pyro at 200 before the MGP and worried. OK I will sneek up on the head temp. This just shows how well your fan works.

[Mr.HillBilly]

ALRIGHT JB is another hot head. Now I do not feel like I am abusing my motors so much. I have never had much luck running under 220 on the head.

[billm]

LOL hot head it is!
have replacement hyper will travel!
One in the box so what the heck. 230 it is.

[The Dude II]

Interesting temps...I don't use the mixture feature of the MGP but did notice HOW WARM my engine was the other evening.

Temps are finally getting "summer-ish" here in Central Indiana.

Put 3 hard flights the other night...excellent power, good smoke...checked temp with the finger immediately after the last flight...was surprised how hot the back-plate was...right at 3-seconds...AND TAKE THE FINGER OFF!

Added 1 click to the 'fat' just to be sure...think I'll take my temp gauge today...just to see...haven't calibrated my finger lately.

[billm]

Sneeking up on the head temp. I also think that air density is changing from winter to spring. I need to adjust the needle arm as the MGP want to go lean to get to the programed temp, but it's at full travel. Also need to solder in a new temp sensor as the old one is busted.

[tacoturbo]

What are you guys using to check head temps?

TT

[jbeech]

I'm so experienced I rarely need to resort to it but I suspect folks are using an infrared temeprature gun. In a pinch, I use the spit test.

[billm]

I would never spit on my pantera! My ex wife...eh....maybe.
Radio Shack sells a pirometer that works well for litlle money.