ICE2 80 HV possible failure?

BaconRaygun · 06-11-2012, 10:40 AM

Well, posted up a thread in the main forum about my Scorpion 4025-550 spitting hot fire this Saturday morning... and many are suggestion it may have been caused by the ESC. The ESC did fail as well, it did not catch fire, but it did fail. Question for the CC owners/engineers, what is your take on the issue? Could an ESC failure have caused my motor to erupt in flames? 200+ worry free flights since I got my replacement after my original went up pop-rocks on me.

Here is a link to the thread.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=424006

Specifications:
14T pinion/12s
Set RPM, 2035, 2150, 2250
V4.01
PWM = 8kHz
Current limiting was default (120A?)
Mid timing
Gov gain = 12
Motor was hard wired so no bullets...

dunkonu23 · 06-11-2012, 12:36 PM

Thing is with something like this is: Do you trust those who will do the failure analysis? If Scorpion says the motor was shorted, I'd trust them. If Castle says the ESC didn't cause the fire, I'd have some doubt. I'm no electrical engineer, but I've had motors catch fire and never damage the ESC, so I'm thinking the ESC didn't cause it. If the ESC is lost, your only recourse is to send it to Castle.

Really until you get all the information from manufacturers, you're in a Chicken before the Egg scenario.

Scott

BaconRaygun · 06-11-2012, 01:55 PM

Yeh I know man, it’s an odd situation.... good thing my fellow heli pilots are letting me borrow an ESC for the time being... and I have a spare motor so I'll be flying by the weekend.

I still need to email CC and send the thing out, that is on the agenda for this week. Perhaps I should PM one of them.

Raydee · 06-11-2012, 02:55 PM

I know guys are having some luck with firmware 4.01 but I can tell you that I tried it in two of my heli's with almost catastrophic consequences. My Logo completely cut out in the air and my T500's motor and esc ran so hot I thought they were going to melt. THe graphs showed current spikes that were off the chart. Back to 3.27 and everything is cool running and back to normal.

BaconRaygun · 06-11-2012, 03:35 PM

See that's the thing... 4.01 has been working great for me. Everything running cool and the logs showed an improvement in the governor function. I'm a meticulous dude, so whenever I make a change I'm running around pulling logs and taking temperature readings.

I PM'ed Patrick... will see what he says. Definitely gonna send it in.

johnahamelv · 06-12-2012, 12:29 PM

How long are your motor mounting screws? My observation with the few motors I've tried is that the motors come with too long mounting screws, that can lead to "shorts".

One nice thing about the KDE motors is that they come with a plastic insulating layer glued onto the motor mounting surface. If the mounting screws are to long, you encounter resistance when screwing the bolts.

Mr Mel has a YouTube video discussing how too long motor mounting screws can affect the motor and ESC.

BaconRaygun · 06-12-2012, 01:49 PM

The screws were the ones which came with the motor... they were fine, that is always something that I inspect when attaching a motor to a motor-mount. The screws touching the windings is definitely bad news, but I can say with 100% certainty that this was not the case here.

paulmedford · 06-13-2012, 08:03 PM

200 flights is alot, did you have the stock bearings? when my motor caught fire and damaged the esc, it was because a magnet came loose and shorted the windings. Did you open up the motor to investigate?

BaconRaygun · 06-14-2012, 10:47 AM

Check the thread I posted in the OP.... pictures of everything. Magnets are not loose.

I swapped the bearings to Boca ABEC#7 ceramic-hybrids about 100 flights ago, no issues and postmortem they are still good... well, one has molten rubber inside it, but aside from that it was not damaged.

That's 200+ flights on the ESC... the motor had over 350 flights, about 250 with stock bearings and another 100+ with the new ones.

paulmedford · 06-14-2012, 07:18 PM

ok saw the thread

paulmedford · 06-14-2012, 07:24 PM

just checked your thread with pics. I think you are right, i think the enamel failed and the wires shorted.pulled way too much current then blew the esc. Its just a motor short. It happens in all high current coils at some point. Like the stator failing in an alternator. It happens. Sorry it took out the esc. guess its a new motor and esc now

06-11-2012, 10:40 AM	#1
BaconRaygun Registered Users My HF Map location Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY	ICE2 80 HV possible failure? Well, posted up a thread in the main forum about my Scorpion 4025-550 spitting hot fire this Saturday morning... and many are suggestion it may have been caused by the ESC. The ESC did fail as well, it did not catch fire, but it did fail. Question for the CC owners/engineers, what is your take on the issue? Could an ESC failure have caused my motor to erupt in flames? 200+ worry free flights since I got my replacement after my original went up pop-rocks on me. Here is a link to the thread. http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=424006 Specifications: 14T pinion/12s Set RPM, 2035, 2150, 2250 V4.01 PWM = 8kHz Current limiting was default (120A?) Mid timing Gov gain = 12 Motor was hard wired so no bullets... __________________ ~Outrage~ Fusion 50 (FB) ~Compass~ Warp 360 ~Blade~ mCP X (BL) AMA# 977012 Team Boca BearingsTeam LYNX Heli Innovations The member formerly known as Vicovaludemero

06-11-2012, 12:36 PM	#2
dunkonu23 Registered Users Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan, East of Hell	Thing is with something like this is: Do you trust those who will do the failure analysis? If Scorpion says the motor was shorted, I'd trust them. If Castle says the ESC didn't cause the fire, I'd have some doubt. I'm no electrical engineer, but I've had motors catch fire and never damage the ESC, so I'm thinking the ESC didn't cause it. If the ESC is lost, your only recourse is to send it to Castle. Really until you get all the information from manufacturers, you're in a Chicken before the Egg scenario. Scott __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Spartan Vortex VX1 Inside Team A Main Hobbies/ProTek Field Rep ):>

06-11-2012, 01:55 PM	#3
BaconRaygun Registered Users Thread Starter My HF Map location Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY	Yeh I know man, it’s an odd situation.... good thing my fellow heli pilots are letting me borrow an ESC for the time being... and I have a spare motor so I'll be flying by the weekend. I still need to email CC and send the thing out, that is on the agenda for this week. Perhaps I should PM one of them. __________________ ~Outrage~ Fusion 50 (FB) ~Compass~ Warp 360 ~Blade~ mCP X (BL) AMA# 977012 Team Boca BearingsTeam LYNX Heli Innovations The member formerly known as Vicovaludemero

06-11-2012, 02:55 PM	#4
Raydee Registered Users My HF Map location Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Buffalo, NY	I know guys are having some luck with firmware 4.01 but I can tell you that I tried it in two of my heli's with almost catastrophic consequences. My Logo completely cut out in the air and my T500's motor and esc ran so hot I thought they were going to melt. THe graphs showed current spikes that were off the chart. Back to 3.27 and everything is cool running and back to normal. __________________ Logo 500se VBar Pro 5.3 Align Trex 700 DFC HV Vbar Pro 5.3 Align Trex 500 EFL Pro Mini Vbar 5.3 Outrage Fusion 50 6s Vbar Pro 5.3

06-11-2012, 03:35 PM	#5
BaconRaygun Registered Users Thread Starter My HF Map location Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY	See that's the thing... 4.01 has been working great for me. Everything running cool and the logs showed an improvement in the governor function. I'm a meticulous dude, so whenever I make a change I'm running around pulling logs and taking temperature readings. I PM'ed Patrick... will see what he says. Definitely gonna send it in. __________________ ~Outrage~ Fusion 50 (FB) ~Compass~ Warp 360 ~Blade~ mCP X (BL) AMA# 977012 Team Boca BearingsTeam LYNX Heli Innovations The member formerly known as Vicovaludemero

06-12-2012, 12:29 PM	#6
johnahamelv Registered Users Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Kensington, Maryland	How long are your motor mounting screws? My observation with the few motors I've tried is that the motors come with too long mounting screws, that can lead to "shorts". One nice thing about the KDE motors is that they come with a plastic insulating layer glued onto the motor mounting surface. If the mounting screws are to long, you encounter resistance when screwing the bolts. Mr Mel has a YouTube video discussing how too long motor mounting screws can affect the motor and ESC. __________________ Whiplash E--ICE2HV160/KDE-495/MKS HV's, Synergy E5/S--ICE2HV120/KDE-530/Futaba HV's T-Rex 600Pro XT--ICE2HV120/KDE-530, T-Rex 550--ICE100/KDE-1175, B130X, mCPx VBar Silverline x4, Lots of KDE, DX8, Sims: Aerofly5.7 /RF6.5/Phoenix 4

06-12-2012, 01:49 PM	#7
BaconRaygun Registered Users Thread Starter My HF Map location Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY	The screws were the ones which came with the motor... they were fine, that is always something that I inspect when attaching a motor to a motor-mount. The screws touching the windings is definitely bad news, but I can say with 100% certainty that this was not the case here. __________________ ~Outrage~ Fusion 50 (FB) ~Compass~ Warp 360 ~Blade~ mCP X (BL) AMA# 977012 Team Boca BearingsTeam LYNX Heli Innovations The member formerly known as Vicovaludemero

06-13-2012, 08:03 PM	#8
paulmedford Registered Users Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: trinidad and tobago	200 flights is alot, did you have the stock bearings? when my motor caught fire and damaged the esc, it was because a magnet came loose and shorted the windings. Did you open up the motor to investigate?

06-14-2012, 10:47 AM	#9
BaconRaygun Registered Users Thread Starter My HF Map location Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY	Check the thread I posted in the OP.... pictures of everything. Magnets are not loose. I swapped the bearings to Boca ABEC#7 ceramic-hybrids about 100 flights ago, no issues and postmortem they are still good... well, one has molten rubber inside it, but aside from that it was not damaged. That's 200+ flights on the ESC... the motor had over 350 flights, about 250 with stock bearings and another 100+ with the new ones. __________________ ~Outrage~ Fusion 50 (FB) ~Compass~ Warp 360 ~Blade~ mCP X (BL) AMA# 977012 Team Boca BearingsTeam LYNX Heli Innovations The member formerly known as Vicovaludemero

06-14-2012, 07:18 PM	#10
paulmedford Registered Users Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: trinidad and tobago	ok saw the thread

06-14-2012, 07:24 PM	#11
paulmedford Registered Users Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: trinidad and tobago	just checked your thread with pics. I think you are right, i think the enamel failed and the wires shorted.pulled way too much current then blew the esc. Its just a motor short. It happens in all high current coils at some point. Like the stator failing in an alternator. It happens. Sorry it took out the esc. guess its a new motor and esc now

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