New Trex 450 L Dominator!

[Funky]

All I did was ask if it was going to be available on 3s.

I am glad it can be 6s. I like my helis powerfull, that is why I am always trying new motors, escs, etc. I just don't think a 3600rpm heli is for everyone so I was simply asking if there are options or if it only comes as 6s.

We can all build it however we want anyways by swapping motors and packs if it has the same bolt pattern, that is why I asked if it was the same size.

[dwdw910]

Originally Posted by Funky

They are angled a bit. Like they are in the 600 efl

I love how so many people think all 450s should be 6s. I have been in a heli club for more than 7 years, have visited many other clubs and been to countless rc heli events over the years. The majority of heli flyers couldn't out fly a 2s setup, let alone need a 6s 3500 rpm heli.... but thats what they will all be running. Can't wait to see all those 450s screaming while hovering tail in with an occasional flip

I was replying to this statement.... not your original question. Because it came right after the sarcastic video- is what got my panties in a bunch.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by dwdw910

A 3s battery can barely pull 325mm blades. It would be a dog on 360mm.

Poppycock and bulldust.

[dwdw910]

Colin you have quite a list there...

Why is it that I am always suffering you?

You are gonna get me kicked out again... But I am ready this time..

This online trifling has become a bore.

It wasn't even a few months ago, I was telling you how to plug in a 3GX (literally.... I can show you the thread) ..... and now you are the master. Always ready to comment and advise.... wanted or unwanted... needed or unneeded.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by dwdw910

Colin you have quite a list there...

No sir, just poppycock and bulldust.

Why is it that I am always suffering you?

Possibly because you keep making ridiculous statements (like "A 3s battery can barely pull 325mm blades.") that others feel the need to call you out on before someone who doesn't know any better reads them and believes them.

You are gonna get me kicked out again... But I am ready this time..

No sir - I don't get you kicked out. YOU get you kicked out.

This online trifling has become a bore.

Well sir, I've said it twice before, and I'll say it again -- if you have an issue with what anyone writes, simply add them to your ignore list.

It wasn't even a few months ago, I was telling you how to plug in a 3GX (literally.... I can show you the thread) ..... and now you are the master. Always ready to comment and advise.... wanted or unwanted... needed or unneeded.

Ah - now I think we're getting a little close to the reason you keep getting banned ... personal attacks.

[dwdw910]

Intolerantly suffering back-stabbers, trolls, arrogant / aggressive / argumentative know-it-alls, moaners, fools, whiners, whingers, grizzlers, idiots, d!ckheads, F_Wits, and complainers since 1960

This says everything about you dude. This is an indirect personal attack to everyone on this site.

Please then Colin... bestow your knowledge upon me and the great readers of HF.

Why did Align put a 6s motor in the Dominator when a 3s motor could be just as powerful?

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by dwdw910

This says everything about you dude.

Sir, I got past being a "dude" about 30 years ago.

This is an indirect personal attack to everyone on this site.

And yet you're the ONLY one who appears to have an issue with it - now. Co-incidence? I think not.

Again - for the 4th time - if you don't like me - and you don't like what I write - or you don't like my signature - or anything else you don't like about me or in fact any one of the others that you also continue to attack (presumably) because we don't agree with you then ADD US TO YOUR IGNORE LIST. Is there anything unclear about that? Do you need some instructions on how to do that?

[dwdw910]

I'd rather hear you explain why it's poppy cock.....

I would like to learn why Align put a 6s motor in where a 3s could have surely sufficed.

Please explain your statement.

You go around quoting and calling BS to save other readers from certain disasterous knowledge... So please explain.

I'm talking about the upper limits of performance here... not tooting around 3s on 325mm.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by dwdw910

I'd rather hear you explain why it's poppy cock.....

I would like to learn why Align put a 6s motor in where a 3s could have surely sufficed.

Please explain your statement.

We are all here to learn Colin... So I'd like to know.

OK - you're back to at least the veiled appearance of civility again - excellent.

I have no inside knowledge of Align's marketing nor design departments, but my educated guess would be probably because of a number of factors:

1. It becomes a marketing differential (ie being first to market over their competition) where the norm has been 3S - and thus offering a perceived performance advantage, in much the same way as camera manufactures tried to lure the market with higher and higher pixel counts (before eventually starting to drop them back in favour of other more significant parameters like increased dynamic range and improved high ISO performance). Just as the population general was brainwashed into thinking a 18MP sensor was better than a 12MP sensor, the same population general is brainwashed into thinking "6S must be twice as good as 3S".

2. It gives a better price-performance ratio (ie you can get the same theoretical maximum performance using lower C rated batteries, which are cheaper to manufacture).

3. It'll probably make more of a mess in a crash and thus driving a better return on investment for parts supply (manufacturers make one hell of a lot more $$$ through the sale of parts than they do through the sale of complete heli kits)

4. It's potentially capable of more performance (in the right hands)

The latter I think is important to qualify a little deeper though; I agree that there are potential performance advantages, but in my experience, by far the biggest limitation of 3S setups is people not realising the connection between battery C ratings and voltage drops (and it's consequential impact on performance), nor the realisation that a batteries true C rating is probably only equal to what's printed on the label the first few times it's flown.

People who are expecting superb 3S performance from a 20C or 30C battery - or a higher C battery that's tired, are going to be disappointed. On the flip side to that -- if they start using healthy higher C rated batteries (eg 60C / 70C) - with ESCs that can get the current through, then the performance of their 3S machines becomes FAR closer to that of a 6S setup. Certainly a far cry from your "A 3s battery can barely pull 325mm blades."

At the end of the day, both the 3S and 6S setups start with EXACTLY the same amount of energy, and disperse it over pretty much the same period of time - so exactly the same amount of power is being consumed. Yes - efficiency then comes into it, but all isn't created equal in that respect -- the fact that the ESC runs a bit cooler is irrelevant; yes, it is an indicator of increased efficiency of that component, but the heat difference over such a small area is like "farting against thunder" - it'll make pretty much ZERO real-world difference.

In terms of motor efficiency, that's the big question. Is the likes of a 1750KV motor more efficient than a 3500KV motor? Probably yes. Significantly so? I'm yet to be convinced.

The two KDE videos are probably a good example of that ...

KDE DIRECT 450 (TREX 450PRO DFC) FLIGHT PERFORMANCE - KDE450XF-3500 - 3S VOLTAGE (4 min 9 sec)

KDE Direct XF Brushless Motor Series - New Release (450XF-1750) (4 min 21 sec)

Two motors - one 3S - one 6S. Both expending the same power in the same time frame. Was the 6S example "Night and Day" performance over the 3S? Not in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the "insane" performance we've observed in the 450L Video isn't simply due to running a 6S setup - it's no-doubt a more powerful motor from the 450MX's 500W (continuous) rating - it was with significantly larger blades - and at a VERY significantly higher head speed than most would be running a 450 class heli. And because there's no such thing as a "free lunch", the flight was also considerably shorter than many will be getting from existing setups (due to more energy being expended).

[gothicbunny]

DW, I have to side with Colin that you can have a pretty powerful 3S setup that is far from being a dog. I've seen videos of the Warp 360 running both power systems and laying it down with the best of them. Videos of the X3 have shown the same with team pilots cranking it up to 4,000 RPM.

Some caveats with that though. On 3S you will be drawing higher current to accomplish the same thing. Here is where a quality battery can make all the difference.

From a marketing standpoint, a 3S combo would appeal to a lot of existing 450 Pro owners that may already have a fair investment in batteries. That adds a lot of value. However, Align does not have much of a history in offering multiple combos aside from the 700 with the HV servo option.

From a consumer stand point, more options is better. I would live to see it offered in 6S, 3S, and barebone as well. That last one could really convert the guys unhappy with the Warp or disappointed in the X3. Depending on price point of course.

Personally, it makes very little difference to me. The 450MX is $50. No matter which power system I want, the conversion is pretty cheap if it isn't the flavor I want. My vendor is good to me so I could probably even talk them into swapping out the motor for a small fee and they would just sell it as an open box item.

At this point, I doubt there is much we can do to change how they have bundled it. It is expected to be out in a couple weeks and we will know the full details then. I'm not much of a gambler, but if I was putting money down I would be pretty confident in it being 6S since the videos they have posted have been running the 460MX 1800KV motor.

[tracernz]

Unless you're heavily invested in 3S batteries I don't see any advantage in going 3S, only disadvantages. My 3S 450 (with Scorpion motor and 65C batt) is a bit of a dog compared to my 6S 450 (with Align motor and 35C batt) and I imagine the gap would only widen with bigger blades.

[ColinSouthern]

Not sure why yours is "a bit of a dog" - my 3S heli with a 60C or 70C battery - KDE Motor on a (heavy) 1Kg 450 frame has been measured on the Variometer to exceed 3500 feet per minute (over 66km/hr straight up) and over 5500 feet per minute (over 100 km/hr) straight down) (disk level in both situations).

I haven't tried longer blades, but I did try a pair of Mavrikk wide-chord blades and the figures were essentially unchanged, and that's running +/- 14 degrees of pitch.

[Trexwilly]

Originally Posted by tracernz

Unless you're heavily invested in 3S batteries I don't see any advantage in going 3S, only disadvantages. My 3S 450 (with Scorpion motor and 65C batt) is a bit of a dog compared to my 6S 450 (with Align motor and 35C batt) and I imagine the gap would only widen with bigger blades.

What ESC on the 3S setup?

[ColinSouthern]

I think some folks are taking their eye off the ball on the 450L a little.

It's not the fact that it'll probably be a 6S setup that's responsible for it's great performance - it's the fact that it's running longer blades - at MUCH higher headspeed (considering the blade length), driven by a more powerful motor.

Whether that motor is 3S or 6S probably wouldn't make much difference (as the - probably similarly setup - KDE examples demonstrate).

If Align only release it as a 6S setup then it's probably somewhat of a moot point (although someone could probably cross-grade it to the KDE 3500KV version if they could live with a slightly lower head speed).

In my case I've love to get one, but it would mean acquiring an entirely new battery cache which, for me, just isn't going to be worth it (I'll probably log a few more hundred hours on the 450 class and then go straight to an 800E class).

[togy]

Originally Posted by tracernz

Unless you're heavily invested in 3S batteries I don't see any advantage in going 3S, only disadvantages. My 3S 450 (with Scorpion motor and 65C batt) is a bit of a dog compared to my 6S 450 (with Align motor and 35C batt) and I imagine the gap would only widen with bigger blades.

I agree, 6s1300mah batteries are so cheap there's no reason not to go 6s. I have a 3s 450 that is a lot of fun, but if I'm gonna buy the 450l it has to be 6s. I hate having to be so careful with the 3s batteries all the time to avoid the loosing their performance. I'd like to have a bunch of charged 6s batteries laying around so I could go fly when I find time and not having to take them from storage charge.

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by togy

I hate having to be so careful with the 3s batteries all the time to avoid the loosing their performance.

I'm currently doing some back to back battery testing with a number of 3S batteries, and haven't noticed ANY significant drop in performance after 45 flights with each and every one of the "abused set" flown to LVC on every flight, stored charged, and charged at 3C.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0E&usp=sharing

[togy]

I guess you didn't forget them fully charged on the shelf over the winter then;-)

[ColinSouthern]

Originally Posted by togy

I guess you didn't forget them fully charged on the shelf over the winter then;-)

That's one parameter I haven't tested (yet). No reason it wouldn't degrade a 6S pack by exactly the same amount though.

[togy]

Originally Posted by ColinSouthern

That's one parameter I haven't tested (yet). No reason it wouldn't degrade a 6S pack by exactly the same amount though.

Probably, but my guess is that you won't notice it to much when flying 6s due to the lower amp draw.

There are more things to consider.
-Many people report having way longer flight times on 6s, 5-6 minutes 3D vs 3.30minutes.
-bad soldering isn't as dangerous on 6s as on 3s making fewer beginners fail and makes bad factory soldering less probe to make problems.
-lower temp on ESC makes you able to keep it in frame.
-faster charging of lipos at the same charge C.

Of course a 3s can be a badass machine. No doubt, just look at Alan Szabos old 450 videos or kyle dahls indoor flight from a couple of year back.
But overall, it's a step forward in development and I wouldn't reduce it to being mostly a marketing trick.

[jetblue2135]

It is my personal opinion obviously but for me there is no reason NOT to go 6S as stated above. The lipos are cheap, $33 for a gens ace 6S 40C pack is pretty sweet. The motor, esc and lipos stay cool even when I am beating the heli is impressive to me. I have run my 6S DFC pro with 350 and 360mm blades and to me its just plain awesome. The reason I went back to the stock 325's I have on there now is they are alot cheaper to replace after a crash compared to a set of Radix 350's or whatever else. With align coming out with their own 360mm blades it will be a no brainer for me to go back to the longer blades and better performance. I think the 6S will become the standard for 450 sized helis for numerous reasons. There are plenty of threads on 6S vs. 3S so I won't ramble on about it here.

I will most likely be adding one of these 450L's to my fleet, looks like it will be a real nice heli.