FB vs. FBL but not the usual debate....

[CAP21]

Okay, it's no question that FBL is the way to go now. There are just more FBL than FB.

Question is why would anyone go FB?

For me, I'm no techie and could barely set up a FB machine so I'll stick to it and fly.

I'd like to know why others would stick to FB.

Again, this is not which is better. To each his own...

[Mixmaster Pilot]

For one you can't compete in FC3 with a FBL heli.

And I think it's like a manual versus flappy paddle gearbox. Some people just don't like the feel, or don't want to give up control.

[banditpowdercoat]

FB usually cheaper. But that by no means its easier to setup. In fact, I'd say just the opposite. FB are harder to setup than FBL. FB you have to make sure the mixers are right, paddles level, Swash mixes, directions, End Points Etc Etc. Add a turn here, subtract a turn or two there. On and on till you get it right and even. FBL, Set the FBL unit to level swash setting, make servo to swash links for swash level, Then blades 0 Pitch. Tell FBL unit max Up and Down Collective, then max cyclic and BAM! Your done.
I can set up a BX unit in less than 10 min where FB was 30+ Min. And then the FB has that nasty roll tendency I hate.

Guess the main reason is cost. It was when I first started too. But now, FBL all the way baby, Less bench time is worth the extra cost

[pjuran]

I have a FB 450 Sport and 250 SE. Still got a ton of spare parts so it is not worth the convert on those 2 birds in my view. When I exhaust my current stock of parts and crash them to the point of a re-kit, I’d replace them with a FBL kit. I have a FBL 550 and love it but, my 450 Sport with the Quark Gyro is smooth as butter, I love the way she flies as is.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by CAP21

Okay, it's no question that FBL is the way to go now. There are just more FBL than FB.

Question is why would anyone go FB?

For me, I'm no techie and could barely se up a FB machine so I'll stick to it and fly.

I'd like to know why others would stick to FB.

Again, this is not which is better. To each his own...

A flybar is still superior in the hover. Even a simple flybar like a trex 700N limited edition is a fair bit easier to hold still than the best FBL setups on the market. They have a kind of deadband and damping right around center stick that enables this; FBL hasn't come up with a good emulation of that yet.

But I expect that to change as FBL hardware/software continues to be improved.

The other reason is electronic simplicity - some prefer to tinker with mechanical devices rather than electronic ones.

But that too will change as the technology advances (i.e. the Vbar has the best user interface on the market right now).

Finally, some guys/gals just enjoy the Bell/Hiller rotor head. They look cool and are even a little easier to see in the air due to the flybar paddles.

LS

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Originally Posted by lucien

A flybar is still superior in the hover. Even a simple flybar like a trex 700N limited edition is a fair bit easier to hold still than the best FBL setups on the market. They have a kind of deadband and damping right around center stick that enables this; FBL hasn't come up with a good emulation of that yet.

Really? First I've heard about it, someone needs to tell my mcpx too.

[Slyster]

I don't think that is true? FBL actually corrects for wind. I can hover upright or inverted... steady the heli.. and let go of the sticks for a long time.. even in stronger winds.

[banditpowdercoat]

My FBL hovers way better than they did when FB. Both Protos and Modded B400. I can take hands off stick and she stays there for much longer. May drift a touch, bit stays hovering. FB, would allways need constant cyclic adjustment for a roll/pitch depending on wind.

[seanh]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

FB usually cheaper. But that by no means its easier to setup. In fact, I'd say just the opposite. FB are harder to setup than FBL. FB you have to make sure the mixers are right, paddles level, Swash mixes, directions, End Points Etc Etc. Add a turn here, subtract a turn or two there. On and on till you get it right and even. FBL, Set the FBL unit to level swash setting, make servo to swash links for swash level, Then blades 0 Pitch. Tell FBL unit max Up and Down Collective, then max cyclic and BAM! Your done.
I can set up a BX unit in less than 10 min where FB was 30+ Min. And then the FB has that nasty roll tendency I hate.

Guess the main reason is cost. It was when I first started too. But now, FBL all the way baby, Less bench time is worth the extra cost

everything electric you mention as to making it harder to setup is no different than FBL.
You still have endpoints, mixes, directions etc but in addition you have gains and other functions to setup in FBL that do not exist in FB birds.

FB Setup difficult? No, it's so simple...setup at 90/0 at mid stick, that's it. Dial it down in your tx. Paddles an issue, not really, put them on and they work. Want faster cyclic, get lighter paddles. Want to screw with FB weights, fine but what you get out is minimal for the time invested.

for most of us we don't need test flights for the head setup, only the tail for a FB bird. If any trimming is done, we generally can fix that in the first minute of flight.

What roll tendency are you referring too? All my birds fly straight.

[banditpowdercoat]

My FB birds would constantly roll a little, into wind etc. And keep rolling if not corrected. My FBL keeps the dist at whatever angle I command it, and it stays there. I tried everythign with FB. Paddles, weights, mixing ratios, angle of paddles. Did not like it. And to set up the BeastX, no endpoints or nothing in radio, no swash mix%. Level swash, Tell it max Cyclic and Collective pitch and done. And less ball links to add play.
For me its FBL anyways, Not goin back.

[airpup86C]

Originally Posted by CAP21

...
I'd like to know why others would stick to FB....

I like FBL well enough (My Knight has been FBL from the start in 2009), but when I needed a new 700 size kit, the FB 700N was way less expensive than a new FBL kit. It was less hassle to build it stock than convert it, and I already had a good tail gyro.

It's also been my impression that the smaller birds benefit the most from FBL, so if I was going to spend the bucks (always in short supply) to convert either of my two FB ships, I'd do the 500 first. The 700 is still making me go wow the way it is.

Al

[lucien]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

My FBL hovers way better than they did when FB. Both Protos and Modded B400. I can take hands off stick and she stays there for much longer. May drift a touch, bit stays hovering. FB, would allways need constant cyclic adjustment for a roll/pitch depending on wind.

A flybar is actually not supposed to do that . That's one of the disadvantages of the flybar - if you have trim changes like that you have to mechanically adjust those out with different paddles, different flybar lengths and adjustments in the head itself. Even a different canopy with more or less frontal area can affect wind-induced trim changes on a flybar.

But once adjusted, the flybar is still in a different league in the hover than current FBL technology. It's just no match, even if you do have to fly the rotor disk here and there.

As I said, tho, this will change as FBL units are refined and I suspect the flybar advantage will eventually be levelled here too.

LS

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Slyster

I don't think that is true? FBL actually corrects for wind. I can hover upright or inverted... steady the heli.. and let go of the sticks for a long time.. even in stronger winds.

A flybar does too, but it has to be adjusted to do so properly. And since it's a mechanical device, that can be a pain in the a$$. I got my 700N really close by installing a set of align F3C blades and flybar weights on the stock flybar/paddles. But if I so much as take the canopy off, it suddenly starts pitching up pretty hard with a relative wind through the rotor.

You get the idea....

A FBL gyro is reactive like a flybar also, but it doesn't have the self-correcting stability that a flybar still has. A gyro will _maintain_ an attitude yeilding basically a neutral stability. A flybar has more of a positive stability in the hover which reduces the workload a bit.

But like I said FBL units are getting better all the time with this and I suspect they'll get smarter in this regard. So that's just a matter of time.

LS

[banditpowdercoat]

Originally Posted by lucien

A flybar does too, but it has to be adjusted to do so properly. And since it's a mechanical device, that can be a pain in the a$$. I got my 700N really close by installing a set of align F3C blades and flybar weights on the stock flybar/paddles. But if I so much as take the canopy off, it suddenly starts pitching up pretty hard with a relative wind through the rotor.

You get the idea....

A FBL gyro is reactive like a flybar also, but it doesn't have the self-correcting stability that a flybar still has. A gyro will _maintain_ an attitude yeilding basically a neutral stability. A flybar has more of a positive stability in the hover which reduces the workload a bit.

But like I said FBL units are getting better all the time with this and I suspect they'll get smarter in this regard. So that's just a matter of time.

LS

So, a FB can do what FBL does, but is a PITA to set up to do that. And any slight changes, canopy, etc and all bets are off? My BX don;t care if canopy on or off, it flys the same. I've never found FB to be less of a workload to fly than FBL. More the opposite. FBL flys way easier and needs less corrections.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

So, a FB can do what FBL does, but is a PITA to set up to do that. And any slight changes, canopy, etc and all bets are off?

Yep, that basically covers it lol.... The flybar persists in F3C competition, though, because of its superior characteristics in the hover, but even that is starting to change.

My BX don;t care if canopy on or off, it flys the same. I've never found FB to be less of a workload to fly than FBL. More the opposite. FBL flys way easier and needs less corrections.

I find a flybar to be distinctly less work in the hover. When there's zero wind, NOBAR is next easiest then followed by a gyro-assisted FBL.

In really really high winds, like 25mph+, though I think the FBL does the best. The FBL tends to stay utterly stable when the gust front comes through while you're up. Then it's just riding the collective pretty much.

LS

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Originally Posted by lucien

Yep, that basically covers it lol.... The flybar persists in F3C competition, though, because of its superior characteristics in the hover, but even that is starting to change.

I don't think that is correct either, FBL units are not allowed because it would be considered cheating, it's against the rules to run a FBL system as it's easier to fly in precision.

[sarah1097]

Call me crazy but I was actually thinking of going flybarless, and was given the chance to try a mikado system and bx system. Compared to my 700 f3c there is not comparison. The f3c which is flybarred is much smoother then any fbl I have seen. In addition I also can take my hands off of the tx and it will just sit there and hoover even in wind. I have been able to do rolls just fine and when I make changes I can run it with out the canopy just fine.
I do not think one is better then thee other, but i do think it is more personal preference. I prefer fb instead of fbl and will always probably will. Others may choose fbl but that is because it is their preference. It is very similar to this, a manual transmission to a auto transmission. Some people like auto better, others like manual better but which is better, well depends on the person and what they are doing.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Mixmaster Pilot

I don't think that is correct either, FBL units are not allowed because it would be considered cheating, it's against the rules to run a FBL system as it's easier to fly in precision.

Actually, it's the other way around, at least not from what I've seen having tried both. As I said, it's the hover where the flybar and FBL really part company. A FBL is still no match for a well-tuned flybar when it comes to holding the heli over one spot. Even a flybar that's not 100% is significantly less pilot workload to hold in the hover - even I can sorta do it with my 700N limited edition with the F3C blades on it.

But a flybar, since it's a mechanical device that's been around for a long time, still basically levels the playing field and everyone has an equal chance, in theory at least.

With FBL, I think all that's left to work out is how to insure that the playing field is level - do you standardize on one particular unit? Or any unit with just a general set of minimal criteria? Once that's worked out, then I should think FBL will become accepted just like anything else.

And the limitations are going to shake out also. The Vbar, for example, with the agility turned down to around 70 or so and the style about in the middle, is really easy to handle in the hover. And other units like the 750 are probably also adjustable similarly (i.e. Ben Minor has done extensive work on using the 750 for F3C style competition, etc).

So that's just a matter of time and working out agreements and so on. FBL is already being established in competition in Japan, so all this will be moot pretty soon.

LS

[lucien]

Originally Posted by sarah1097

Call me crazy but I was actually thinking of going flybarless, and was given the chance to try a mikado system and bx system. Compared to my 700 f3c there is not comparison. The f3c which is flybarred is much smoother then any fbl I have seen. In addition I also can take my hands off of the tx and it will just sit there and hoover even in wind. I have been able to do rolls just fine and when I make changes I can run it with out the canopy just fine.
I do not think one is better then thee other, but i do think it is more personal preference. I prefer fb instead of fbl and will always probably will. Others may choose fbl but that is because it is their preference. It is very similar to this, a manual transmission to a auto transmission. Some people like auto better, others like manual better but which is better, well depends on the person and what they are doing.

Yepper. The humble trex 700 F3C may be my next machine, speaking of that. NOBAR is the most fun to fly in very high winds, and FBL I enjoy "upstairs". But a flybar with a low headspeed still holds my attention and keeps me going back and forth, back and forth to the fuel jug or charger more than any of the others.....

LS

[Mixmaster Pilot]

Not sure what your smoking but a FB system will not hold a hover hands off. No heli will, not even a full size Huey.