Scorpion HK 3226 12N10P rewind

[deebee]

I am gearing up to do my first wind and of course have alot of questions.
I have a 3226 motor ready to go except the epoxy has been stripped off the stator.
1. MATERIALS
I am having trouble sourcing nomex paper for in between the teeth.
I am unsure what to use to cap the stator with or where to get it.
I plan to test wind with thinner wire first maybe use the 3 meters of plastic coated servo wire since it is soft, easy to wind and hard to break the coating, and I can use a seperate color for each phase.
Suggestions as to type of wire to use In the real wind, would be appreciated.

2. Turn calculator
I have the turn calculator 7 spreadsheet, and the software that shows various wind patterns.
The Scorpion website lists the 900kv version as 9 turn, d wind. I am not sure this translates to 9 turns in the calculator.
I do not have the correct wire length as the motor i have was already unwound.
I do not know which measurements in box 4 relate to which stator dimension.

3. Wind choices I feel like a simple dLrk wind might be a good choice, but I am not sure exactly how the resistance of each wind will affect the power and efficiency. I am going to go with what makes sense and say lower resistance is definitely more power both in and out at wot. I dont exactly understand how this effects partial throttle or various losd conditions.

Nor am I certain if the t-talc is listing resistance for each phase or the entire motor.


Alot of these answers may become obvious as I look into the formulas behind t-calc. As well the wind rating in the program that does the pictures should weed out any options that wouldn't run well with my motor.

I am aiming for around 675kv-750kv, and would like to be able to geat at least the same amount of power as the stock 900kv.
I am considering 12-13turns Lrk Star , 13 turn 2 group Y star, or 6-7 turns y star.
I am not even sure which wind is distributed LRK for the wind calculator.

I cannot get the winding scheme calculator to run on my tablet so I can see the rating it gives for different winds for different N-P configurations.

I read up alot on this some time ago alot of the info specifically that o powercroco's site is gone. So I am going back through and the biggest stumbling block is the varying terminology, seems everything has at least 2 or 3 different ways to refer to it, although they are the same. The basic theory and math are a bit easier for me to understand, if I can remember the formulas.

[Vinger]

Just search in this forum and lots of info on what to use and winding schemes.

Here are a few
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...highlight=3226
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...highlight=3226
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=481801

[deebee]

Thanks for the links , I was able to get the winding scheme calculator to work. I have done some searching and studying lately as well as I the past.

My primary question now has to do with how motor resistance effects the motor and how resistance effects my wind choice.

Other than that I need to source the nomex paper and fg plate for the endcaps.

When it comes to the end result I am not getting too far from stock 900kv motor i need a little less kv, and really want it to run cool and efficient as possible, hopefully I will end up with slightly increased power handling as well.
That is one of my difficulties in finding info, as most motors are wound with the primary intention of max power, I haven't really seen efficiency as the focus of a discussion.

Thanks Again,
db

[Bladecpnitro]

How many cells are going to be running this on?

You can get 520 KV out of the stock 9 turns by simply terminating in Y

And of course if you want to get a little more KV you'd have to take off a turn or two.

6 Turns Y = 780KV
7 turns Y = 668KV
8 Turns Y = 585KV

The lesser the turns or shorter the wire, the less your resistance will be.

Do yourself a favor and do a test wind with thin wire and test the KV to make sure its where you want it before you go all out on it.

You can find the Nomex paper on ebay.

[deebee]

It is for 6s.

I got the nomex 2mil and 3mil on the way same for .5mm fiberglass sheet.

I still don't know how to match up the drawings from the winding schematic program. To the turn calc 7 spread sheet

I am thinking that 1 layer Y is equal to star Y
2 layer Y is equal to LRK star
1 layer d equals delta
2 layer d equals LRK delta
2 1 layer Y motors wound on 1 stator equals 2 group parallel star
2 1 layer d motors equal 2 group parallel delta

I need to at least be able to verify this before trying test winds.

I got some fairly thick wire in an alternator that i might be able to use.
Thin magnet wire of some sort will probably show itself around the house at some point.
I think i have some thin single strand cap wire that would at least have some stiffness and give me a small taste of what it is like to bend and straighten wire around the stator, at the same time not risking a short in the test wind as well as allow me to practice before my fg sheet and nomex arrives.

Fly Steady
db

[Bladecpnitro]

You could try a 6+7 DLRK Evolution wind. This wind lends itself to easy Delta termination. With this you can use smaller wire which is easier to handle.

If the stock wind was 4+5 turns you can bet they packed as much wire on the posts with 5 turns as they could possibly get.

The idea is to pack the motor full of copper, so just any size wire is not going to work.

Taken from the stock wind, you have to figure the square area of the wire that had 5 turns on it so you'll know what size wire will fit with 7 turns of single strands.


I'm not sure I follow you on the layers thing. Delta or Y is simply how the 3 separate ends of the wind terminates.

Delta is hooked up in series much like a battery - Positive to negative, positive to negative. A start to C end, B start to A end, C start to B end.

While Y is hooked up in parallel. The 3 wires where each phase begins will be your motor leads. The 3 ends will tie all together and you have a Y Termination and if you notice the letter "Y" has a 3 way connection. I imagine that is why its used to describe Y termination.

You have 3 wires where you start winding, centered around your locking pin so they go out the motor through port easily.

The other end of the wires is where you terminate all 3 for Y . Each wire will go through 4 post for a DLRK wind before terminating. Again delta termination will pair up with the start lead A to the end of lead C, Start B with end A, start C to end B. And its not impossible to use start A to start C or other variations. The other way generally makes for good routing.

Take a look at this DLRK evolution sheme here. I like to move CCW when winding a motor because that's the way the first motor I unwound had to be rewound.

I would start winding CCW at post 8 with 7 turns
then make outside jump to post 7 with 6 turns CW
then move to post 2 with 7 turns CW
move to post 1 with 6 turns CCW

Note: the wire must be threaded through each time after outside jump is made)
http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/sche...n/#prettyPhoto[gallery1]/2/

You could do a practice wind with some 22 Aug wire but for the final wind you might get 19 Aug in there.

Here is a handy Aug to Metric conversion chart to help you figure the sq area of your wire and order the right size wire for the final wind. http://www.technick.net/public/code/..._awg_to_metric

Stock wire was 23 strands of .23mm wire

Find the sq area of one piece of single strand .23mm wire x 23 strands x 5 turns then you'll know the total sq area of the stock wire on the post with 5 turns.

Divide that by 7 single strands and you'll know the sq area of the single strand wire that will fit your motor with 7 turns and that's pretty much........ not it.

Then you need a 1000V meggar to test for shorts. A shorted motor can fry up a nice ESC.
You need a decent amp meter, a decent multimeter, variable power supply that will pull some decent amps a spare ESC and something to tac the motor with to check KV. You can pick some of these along the way, if you don't have some of those things already.

The very least you need for this wind is a decent way to test KV and a multimeter that reads ohms so you can at least make sure that none of your winding is hard grounded to the stator. An ohms meter will likely pick up a direct short but the 1000 V meggar picks up things where there is just barely a short that the multimeter wont see.

Good luck!

[deebee]

Thanks blade cp nitro that about sums it up for me .

The winds the turn calc spread sheet was referring to were confusing me because dLRK was not marked as such. So I didn't know if LRK referred to dLRK and standard referred to LRK or what.
But i should have guessed the unmarked standard was dLRK, as LRK and
Parallel were taken.

I think i will probably use 6+7 dLRK delta. As I might have problems packing in single strand with 3+4 Y.

Like I said I have some .9 plastic coated servo wire that should work for a test wind with little chance of shorting even on a stripped stator.

Thanks for the info, it's off to the Lab for me.


Fly Steady
db

[deebee]

Turned out the servo wire I had was 1.05mm thick so my practice /test wind ended up being 6+6 dLRK D which should give around 675kv based on 9 turn 900kv stock.



Have to test the individual windings, then throw It on a yep 45 with a 12v 1.2 amp power supply just to check windings for stealth shorts. If i managed to short the servo wires which is possible, I will try again after getting the fg sheets arrive.
Otherwise I will go ahead and put it on a 3s then 6s lipo the latter hooked through a hyperion Ldu and display.
All goes well it will just be a matter of waiting on the wire to arrive.

Soldered terminations, tested for shorts, and done a hand spin generator test. Continuity was good all around, there was definitely noticeable resistance when shorting the phases.

.5 fg sheet, .02 and .03 mil Nomex, 24 guage newbie wire and 20 guage uDan wire are all on the way.

The obvious route of course is to make plates, practice wind with 24 AWG newbie wire once I am able to get it looking and working good, then I will break out the good stuff.
20 ga was the biggest available when I ordered. If it doesn't fill as good as possible, I am gonna run it anyway and see what kind of oomph it has.

After all I got a 4260 with a 354X stator laying around, turned out it has 2 bearings in the tail. As well as a running 3026 880kv that could get some new wire as well, I would like to find a 14 pole can balanced and ready to go.


What about the resistance of the motor. How do two like motors of equal KV say one with X milliohm resistance, and another with 1.5X milliohm resistance?
Lower resistance less heat, and higher peak current, but then you add a magnetic field acting on it. Torque would have to be the same so, it would just run cooler?
Some one who has got this down let me know if I am on the right track with this thinking or do I got it wrong somewhere?

[Bladecpnitro]

I don't know a lot about resistance but I do know if you want something to perform at its very max, in the heat of summer, high voltage is the answer to keeping things cooler. You can get by easily in winter with lower voltage setups but summer stresses things to the max.

I wish now I had wound my Scorpion 4020-1350 for 12S instead of 6S. Its extremely powerful with 1.6 DLRK 3+4 YY wind on 6S but the heat is ridiculous. I'm gonna drop a couple teeth on the pinion and see if I can bring that heat down some. I find my self with a puffed 6S lipo and a Castle ICE 100 ESC getting over 200 degrees in the heat of the day. That was just a spike though but you never know when a little spike like that will blow something. Average amps is 47 but spike amps are like 119 and ESC temp is around 167 average.

Single wire maxed out copper motors tend to make pack and ESC killers which is no big deal if you can throw down for some high quality, hi C rated packs and a new hi Amp ESC. If Im gonna do all that I'm gonna go 12S and not need such expensive packs, drop amps by half and temp as well.

The LRK wind leaves every other post unwound which makes it also a very easy beginner wind but without all the copper its not gonna have quite the same punch.