HK-4025 12N8P Winding Project

[powercroco]

Originally Posted by Chris_M

Are there any videos or step by step tutorials on this process and whats involved?

for 12N8P winding you can follow this site (12N8P and 12N16P use the same scheme):
http://www.powerditto.de/Schemaditto.html

for 12N8P YY
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8PYY.html

for 12N8P with half turns:
http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8Phalb.html

[ZuvieleTeile]

Easier said than done.
I got almost broken fingers and poked myself in the cheek with "just" 1.06mm wire during a little test-winding.
Since we have you here Ralph, I would to take the opportunity to pick your rain a little bit.

I read a lot in your powerditto and looked at the winding schemes until I had bloody eyes.
There is one major thing, I don't understand.
I am talking about the correlation of the various teeth in general and the 12N10P YY in specific.
I did this in the excellent calculator on your website and got the attached result.
As far as I understood the whole thing so far, I was under the impression, that a North pole is created, when I start with the winding down at the slot and wind outward.
It does not matter, if I wind cw or ccw, right?
And lets say this first winding is the one where the current from the ESC comes in (Anfang A) red group.
Now, looking at the attached pic, I see, that the second red group (opposite) has the (Anfang A) exactly opposite of the first tooth of the first group.
Only difference is the direction of the winding.
I thought that the opposite tooth has to have a different pole direction, in this case, South.
Question here is, what makes a South or Northpole at a stator tooth.
The direction of the winding or the direction of the current flow?

Please enlighten me here and please keep in mind me being just a layman, but with the desire not only to copy, but to understand.

[HeliFX]

too add to the confusion.

scorpion HK- 4225 motors come both in 8P and 10P.
http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/search/?q=4225

according to the scorpion site 10P is only available as a kit as well as 8P kit.
built motors they only have 8P.

for new motor winders like myself I'd pay special attention too this.

Originally Posted by powercroco

for 12N10P YY winding you can follow this site:
http://www.scorpion.powercroco.de/12N10P4225Kit.html


schematic:
http://www.powerditto.de/schemamodus12N_YY2.html

for 525/V (jive) or 550 (yge) you need 6+7 turns YY.
easy to wind with 1,25mm; normal with 1,32mm; possible for good winders 1,4mm wire on 4225 kit.

[powercroco]

the only important rule you can find here

http://www.powerditto.de/schemalesen.html

if a cw coil makes a magnetic "north" p.e. you can change it with 2 ways:
you change the winding direction to ccw or you change the flow direction of current you get "south".
if you change both together, you have "north" again.

this is the same in every winding scheme!
it's the one and only basic rule.....

[ZuvieleTeile]

From what I've heard and read at powercroco etc.. the 12N10P variant is the most used, economical and powerful.
And not to forget, a lot of people are using the Jive and the Jive likes 12N10P in YY
Look at all the other big motors.
Most of them are 12N10P

[HeliFX]

yup I do realize that.
12N8P is a motor I currently have and figured it be a good motor to do a first time winding.
I realize the power increases are not as advantageous on 12N8P then a 10P.

I also have kontronik pyro 700 but not going to try it on that.

I may consider getting a kit 12N10P in the future.

Originally Posted by ZuvieleTeile

From what I've heard and read at powercroco etc.. the 12N10P variant is the most used, economical and powerful.
And not to forget, a lot of people are using the Jive and the Jive likes 12N10P in YY
Look at all the other big motors.
Most of them are 12N10P

[ZuvieleTeile]

Originally Posted by powercroco

the only important rule you can find here

http://www.powerditto.de/schemalesen.html

if a cw coil makes a magnetic "north" p.e. you can change it with 2 ways:
you change the winding direction to ccw or you change the flow direction of current you get "south".
if you change both together, you have "north" again.

this is the same in every winding scheme!
it's the one and only basic rule.....

Finally!!! Somehow I must have missed that. Thanks a lot for the clarification.
Now, back to above calc pic. It is missing your preferred outside jump from the first to the second tooth of the group. But that's not all. The turn direction is a little bit confusing.
I learned from your site that you usually designate a cw winding with a capital letter and a ccw winding with a lower case letter.
The calculator reversed this, or do I see it from a wrong perspective?

[powercroco]

you should read the given links !!!
also this answer you can find into the linked page!

short said:
if you say ABC or XYZ or abc or what ever - these capitals are only placeholders for their definition.

[Blades_Cuts]

Originally Posted by HeliFX

yup I do realize that.
12N8P is a motor I currently have and figured it be a good motor to do a first time winding.
I realize the power increases are not as advantageous on 12N8P then a 10P.

I also have kontronik pyro 700 but not going to try it on that.

I may consider getting a kit 12N10P in the future.

Depends on how are you going to use it. The 8P version has the advantage at higher rpm. Higher pole count suffer more iron losses at higher rpm.

[HeliFX]

I read this link a few times however the biggest problem I face is "google translator"
a slight variation of translated wording sometimes does not make much sense to me and have trouble interpreting important theory.

any chance an English version made available

Originally Posted by powercroco

you should read the given links !!!
also this answer you can find into the linked page!

short said:
if you say ABC or XYZ or abc or what ever - these capitals are only placeholders for their definition.

[Stolla]

Hi Ralph, a Little off the topic but since were talking about 4025 which is an in to out wind compared to the 12n 10 pole where you have to thread back on the second slot, ive used the method of starting in the middle of the winding wire then wind both slots in to out to good effect, Apart from not having to thread back, (which is obviously more difficult) it's also easier to add extra windings without the" crossing" wire being in the way.
Only instance where i would perhaps prefer the original method is in the case of the 5020 where the bell runs very close to the outside of the stator and i want the extra wind on the inside
Apart from showing off extra skills, are there any particular reason why you dont use this method?

[powercroco]

for 12N8P winding I use this mode:

www.powerditto.de/schema12N8P.html


you have to wind it with all 3 wires at the same time, but it gives the shortest wires and so the lowest internal resistance in winding.

I don't know any mode for 12N8P which is better windable from the middle, so I can't understand your question.

[ZuvieleTeile]

I think Stolla and Ralph are talking about different issues here.
I am a newbie, but I dare to chime in here.. .
Stolla refers to a variation of the winding at a 12N10P, whereas Ralph talks about a 12N8P.
Since we are in the 4025 12N8P thread here, let me put together, what I think is the proper winding for this.

If I do it right, I see that I learned something. If I do it wrong, I am sure, Ralph with correct me and will enhance my knowledge. So, it is a win-win situation for me.

In regards to the 4025, which is a 12N8P, you have to wind in ABC, meaning you wind your complete A tooth with one piece of wire and then your complete B tooth with a second piece of wire and then your C tooth the same.
With the end of the A tooth wire you jump then to the next ABC group, meaning you take the end of the A wire and go to tooth # 4 and start another A wind there and you do the same with the end of the B # 5 tooth and so on.
Once all teeth are wound, that gives you 4 times ABC and leaves you with 6 wire ends.
Those you can connect either to Y or D.
For Y, the 3 beginnings from ABC are the connections to the ESC and the ends are soldered together as a star point.
For D you build the ESC connections by soldering the following wires together:
End of A to beginning of B. End of B to beginning of C. End of C to beginning of A.

I saw at Ralph's site also the possibility to do a 12N8P with very short wires in group of 4 times ABC configuration. This leaves you with 24 wires and you can connect those to a 4 partial motor configuration which you connect then parallel again. . .

[HeliFX]

When first posed the question on rc-network I was directed to this link to follow and use.

http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8PYY.html

and also the link you have provided

http://www.powerditto.de/schema12N8P.html

clearly they apply to the same motor so

is the only difference the YY configuration.?

Originally Posted by powercroco

for 12N8P winding I use this mode:

www.powerditto.de/schema12N8P.html


you have to wind it with all 3 wires at the same time, but it gives the shortest wires and so the lowest internal resistance in winding.

I don't know any mode for 12N8P which is better windable from the middle, so I can't understand your question.

[powercroco]

first link is for YY configuration.
second link is for "simple" Y and D configuration.

almost all motors you can buy are made in simple D.

[HeliFX]

ok great thanks,

How do the two differ in performance and advantage ?

Are different configuration designed for a particular use speed versus more torque etc ?

I'm looking to keep the Kv value high 1100 since its 6S configuration.

Originally Posted by powercroco

first link is for YY configuration.
second link is for "simple" Y and D configuration.

almost all motors you can buy are made in simple D.

[powercroco]

its all almost the same.
the only difference is the needed number of turns.

to find out the right number of turns is a testwinding with thin wire the only good way.

[HeliFX]

ok,

Is there an equation or method you have found that helped you find a good starting point before one attempts to wind and test with thinner wire to get desired Kv ?

How much of a factor does the wire thickness play on the overall Kv target value ?

is it strictly number of turns and the type of termination Delta or Star (wye) that determines Kv ?

thanks

Originally Posted by powercroco

its all almost the same.
the only difference is the needed number of turns.

to find out the right number of turns is a testwinding with thin wire the only good way.

[powercroco]

to answer one question only brings 3 new ones.
to repeat here all the just often written down things again especially for you makes no sense for me and is wasted time.
you should read, read, read.
sorry, I'am out at this point.

[ZuvieleTeile]

Originally Posted by HeliFX

ok,

Is there an equation or method you have found that helped you find a good starting point before one attempts to wind and test with thinner wire to get desired Kv ?
How much of a factor does the wire thickness play on the overall Kv target value ?
is it strictly number of turns and the type of termination Delta or Star (wye) that determines Kv ? thanks

You can find it in here: http://www.powerditto.de/Konstruktionsregelnditto.html
The 4th last paragraph.
Es gelten bei der Auslegung der Bewicklung folgende Regeln:
höhere Betriebsspannung = Höhere Windungszahl für gleiche Drehzahl
mehr Windungen = weniger Drehzahl
mehr Windungen = höherer Innenwiderstand = große Lastabhängigkeit der Drehzahl und schmales Wirkungsgradoptimum sowie weniger umsetzbare Leistung
dickerer Draht bei gleicher Windungszahl = höherer Füllgrad, kleinerer Innenwiderstand und höhere Drehzahlsteifheit sowie mehr umsetzbare Leistung

Essentially, to answer just your question about the wire thickness. It does not play a big role in the Kv value.
A thicker wire gives you more copper, less resistance and more torque. Meaning less bogging.
So, when you do a test wind with, let's say a 0.8mm wire, the Kv should not differ much from the real thing like 1.25mm or 1.4mm