Add brushless inrunner motor to HBFP?

[UAV_PILOT]

I got this idea of putting a brushless motor on my HBFP. Would it fly better? Also what about adding an 11.1v lipo to it as well? I keep hearing all this stuff about the 11.1 will burn up the tail motor but there is collective pitch helis out there that are using tail motors with 11.1v batteries stock and they don't have any problems. I do see a lot of 370 motors going out faster because of using a 11.1v.

[RotaryBoy]

UAV_PILOT,

I have been running 3S packs (11.1V) since I got my HBFP. From my experience with the little bird I find the following details to be issues with the 3S pack.

The stock tail motor has an 8t pinion, most CP micro's have a 9t or 10t meaning the motor doesn't work as hard to hold the tail.

The stock tail setup on 3S burn out about every 5 packs (45-50 mins) of constant flight. I have found that if you change the pinion (9t or 10t) it will increase the life of the little tail motor. As for the 370 stock motor, I broke it in with 2 AA batteries (ran for about 2 hours) when I got it. I flew probably 30-35 packs on it and it was still going strong when I dropped in the brushless. I still have it as a backup.

I am running a brushless setup (linky) on the main motor (outrunner - prefer them for cooling purposes) and a CN12 on the tail in a DD setup (linky). It has about 30-35 packs of flight and only gets mildly warm even after my 5th or 6th pack in a row.
My next adventure is going to be running brushless on the tail with a B12-30 (linky). I have two of them on the way.

[RomanC]

What gyro are you running? As far as I understand, the brushless + 4in1 requires a separate gyro to make things work. I am running an eXtreme motor and a DD tail. I think powerwise it is pretty good. In fact, I think it has too much power for the plastic blades, as they make a ton of noise, when I throttle all the way up.

Originally Posted by RotaryBoy

UAV_PILOT,

I have been running 3S packs (11.1V) since I got my HBFP. From my experience with the little bird I find the following details to be issues with the 3S pack.

The stock tail motor has an 8t pinion, most CP micro's have a 9t or 10t meaning the motor doesn't work as hard to hold the tail.

The stock tail setup on 3S burn out about every 5 packs (45-50 mins) of constant flight. I have found that if you change the pinion (9t or 10t) it will increase the life of the little tail motor. As for the 370 stock motor, I broke it in with 2 AA batteries (ran for about 2 hours) when I got it. I flew probably 30-35 packs on it and it was still going strong when I dropped in the brushless. I still have it as a backup.

I am running a brushless setup (linky) on the main motor (outrunner - prefer them for cooling purposes) and a CN12 on the tail in a DD setup (linky). It has about 30-35 packs of flight and only gets mildly warm even after my 5th or 6th pack in a row.
My next adventure is going to be running brushless on the tail with a B12-30 (linky). I have two of them on the way.

[Sublime Snot]

Rotary Boy,

I'm interested to see if making the tail brushless is possible. Let us know if it works, and how you got it to work! I'm thinking about buying this heli just to play around with even though I already have a Honeybee King 2.

[RotaryBoy]

I have seen two HBFP's setup with all brushless. There is a mixing board that is required, it takes the analog output for the brushed motor and converts it over to ESC outputs so you can run brushless setups from the stock 4n1 or a 3n1 with your own Rx.

Linky - http://www.helihobby.com/html/ESKY1.html
Look at the 6th product down, you will find the board I am speaking of..... You can pick boards up on Ebay that convert 2 analog signals to ESC outputs on one board.

Then you can run the stock 4n1 with brushless tail and brushless main.....

RotaryBoy

[RotaryBoy]

Originally Posted by RomanC

What gyro are you running? As far as I understand, the brushless + 4in1 requires a separate gyro to make things work. I am running an eXtreme motor and a DD tail. I think powerwise it is pretty good. In fact, I think it has too much power for the plastic blades, as they make a ton of noise, when I throttle all the way up.

Be careful throwing the motor up to full power on the eXtreme motor.... That motor pulls alot of current and you could end up burning the 4n1.... The eXtreme motor is way to much power for the HBFP and actually makes it quite twitchy.... I run the Slomax in my brushed setup.

The 4n1 - (Rx - Brushed ESC for Main Motor - Brushed ESC for Tail Motor - Rate Gyro)
The rate Gyro suits the HBFP fine and holds the tail quite well for a small heli. No external Gyro needed, as I stated before, to run the brushless, you need to convert the analog motor signal over to a digital ESC output.

RotaryBoy

[RotaryBoy]

Found one....

This is a dual board, it converts the main and tail motor on the same board.....

Ebay Linky

[Sublime Snot]

Originally Posted by RotaryBoy

I have seen two HBFP's setup with all brushless. There is a mixing board that is required, it takes the analog output for the brushed motor and converts it over to ESC outputs so you can run brushless setups from the stock 4n1 or a 3n1 with your own Rx.

Linky - http://www.helihobby.com/html/ESKY1.html
Look at the 6th product down, you will find the board I am speaking of..... You can pick boards up on Ebay that convert 2 analog signals to ESC outputs on one board.

Then you can run the stock 4n1 with brushless tail and brushless main.....

RotaryBoy

Oh, so people do this all the time then? Great to know it's manageable. Thanks for the link.

[RotaryBoy]

Originally Posted by Sublime Snot

Oh, so people do this all the time then? Great to know it's manageable. Thanks for the link.

No, not all the time.... I have only seen this on two birds.... one of which I helped build.... I know alot of folks that go brushless on the main motor using a 3n1 and a seperate Rx.... just wire the ESC to the RX throttle channel and roll..... running the tail brushless is a bit more "tricky" if you want to use the rate gyro in the 4n1/3n1

It is also a bit expensive... when you paid $100 for the entire heli.....

RotaryBoy

[Sublime Snot]

I wonder if it's possible to just make the tail belt-driven.

hmmm...would still need some sort of chip to operate the tail servo...

[RotaryBoy]

Originally Posted by Sublime Snot

I wonder if it's possible to just make the tail belt-driven.

hmmm...would still need some sort of chip to operate the tail servo...

Yes, GuruZ sells a belt driven tail frame and tail, it's a 12mm setup which is identical to a Trex 450 setup.....

You would only be able to roll this route if you pulled the 4n1/3n1 and went full separates with a gyro. I personally think that it is overkill for a heli this small in size...

The only reason I have pushed for the BL setup on the main and tail is because the brushed burn up and have to be replaced... the BL keeps me running with no worries of burnout.....

RotaryBoy

[Sublime Snot]

Right on. I know very well the capabilities of a brushless motor and its importance to setting up the HBK2 to make it fly properly. I'll explore the possibilities of upgrading the HBFP later on when I actually get one. Beforehand, I will look up stuff like bare-bones kits, get the upgraded electronics/ hardware, and just build it up to be the perfect Honeybee FP. Even if the upgrades are a bit overkill, I hate replacing parts with the same parts.

[RotaryBoy]

Originally Posted by Sublime Snot

Right on. I know very well the capabilities of a brushless motor and its importance to setting up the HBK2 to make it fly properly. I'll explore the possibilities of upgrading the HBFP later on when I actually get one. Beforehand, I will look up stuff like bare-bones kits, get the upgraded electronics/ hardware, and just build it up to be the perfect Honeybee FP. Even if the upgrades are a bit overkill, I hate replacing parts with the same parts.

My Super FP's are setup from scratch, the stock HBFP Frame is just carbon fiber rods and some plastic peices to hold them together. This setup works GREAT for a new pilot because when they smash it, CA some new CF rods in place and they are up again!! However, for an experienced pilot that would not be beating up the little heli...

I roll this setup and find it to be quite nice for someone who can already fly and wants to roll an FP...

Guru-Z CF Frame
HBFP Head Setup
HBFP Main shaft and Main Gear
M24 Blades or 6 degree woodies
Esky 9g Servo's
Some 5mm CF stock I have for tail boom
Guru-Z CF tail Fin setup
CN-12 Brushed Tail Motor (Screws right into the GZ Fin Setup) /w 12mm heatsink
Slomax Brushed Main motor with a 9t pinion (I use my DX7 to tone down the throttle curve)
Esky 3n1
AR6000 - Rx
DX7 - Tx

I have modified this version to brushless.... but as I stated.... for someone who wants to put one together and enjoy it without the cost of ESC's and BL motors.....

I fly 3S 1000mah packs and get 11-12 min flights with every pack (unless the wind is kicking and I'm pushing the throttle to counter the wind factor).

[Sublime Snot]

Much Thanks for the setup info RotaryBoy. It gives me a great idea on what parts I'm looking for now.

[BEAM ME UP]

Originally Posted by RotaryBoy

UAV_PILOT,

I have been running 3S packs (11.1V) since I got my HBFP. From my experience with the little bird I find the following details to be issues with the 3S pack.

The stock tail motor has an 8t pinion, most CP micro's have a 9t or 10t meaning the motor doesn't work as hard to hold the tail.

The stock tail setup on 3S burn out about every 5 packs (45-50 mins) of constant flight. I have found that if you change the pinion (9t or 10t) it will increase the life of the little tail motor. As for the 370 stock motor, I broke it in with 2 AA batteries (ran for about 2 hours) when I got it. I flew probably 30-35 packs on it and it was still going strong when I dropped in the brushless. I still have it as a backup.

I am running a brushless setup (linky) on the main motor (outrunner - prefer them for cooling purposes) and a CN12 on the tail in a DD setup (linky). It has about 30-35 packs of flight and only gets mildly warm even after my 5th or 6th pack in a row.
My next adventure is going to be running brushless on the tail with a B12-30 (linky). I have two of them on the way.

hey rotary boy, i'm new and was reading your post on 08 06 of 08, re:cooler running for the tailmotor on a hbfpv2. you advised a GWS cn12 motor. Ok i'll order a few. the # of teeth it comes with is ok? can I still run as is (it is set up for 11.1 v. also I'll be using super blades EZ type. any input and opinion I would appreciate, and value.
thnkx much..beam me up

[RotaryBoy]

Originally Posted by BEAM ME UP

hey rotary boy, i'm new and was reading your post on 08 06 of 08, re:cooler running for the tailmotor on a hbfpv2. you advised a GWS cn12 motor. Ok i'll order a few. the # of teeth it comes with is ok? can I still run as is (it is set up for 11.1 v. also I'll be using super blades EZ type. any input and opinion I would appreciate, and value.
thnkx much..beam me up

I know it has been a really long time since this conversation and previous post, however, just in case you are still around flying.....

I never perfected the brushless tail setup, I got back from deployment and life happened. I am currently working a deal to get my helis back out of the box, just awaiting financial stability.

My plan was to make them direct drive, however, I have not laid the specs of the motor vs tail rotor speed to see if it would need to be geared down.

[sprooce]

Hey Rotary!

Just wondering if you found a tail brushless setup that worked? I'm putting together a few bits and pieces to go full separates on my EF Sabre... it has a different 4-in-1 to the HBFP so I can't easily extract the PWM signal to feed to an ESC the way most guys have done. Still.. a receiver and gyro from Hobby King won't break the bank. Problem is choosing a tail ESC and motor.

I think it's going to be a bit hit and miss sorting this out!

good luck,

Sprooce