Here we go again, ESC chokes motor in flight and has 450L going into the ground

[Sefrez]

Originally Posted by jankruis

I have a very similar problem with the stock motor/ESC (460MX and RCE-BL45X) on the 450L Dominator 3S kit. After completing the build, I was test running the motor on the bench. Below 50% throttle every runs just fine - ran it for several minutes. Then after increasing the throttle, suddenly the motor cuts out and starts produces a high pitched whine. All controls on the heli still work just fine.The whine stops when I bring the throttle to 0. Increasing it just re-starts the whine. I think the motor gets in a high oscillation - both the motor and ESC heat up quickly in this state.

I unplugged the motor from the ESC, and plugged it back in - no change, same whine.
Unplugging the battery from the ESC and plugging it back in and everything works again and I can start the cycle all over. It does the same thing every time.

It must be a problem with the ESC, so I ordered a replacement. Also posted a question to the store where I bought the kit. At a certain current draw the ESC must get is some state that only power cycling brings it out off. It certainly does not recover on its own - making sure there was not peak current of over heating protection kicking in, I have waited for 10 minutes - but no change.

Obviously not flying the heli in this state - which is a bummer. Everything else looks really good.

I'm still flying with the same ESC and haven't experienced it again in probably over 50 flights. Honestly, I still don't know what has caused it. When it happened this previous time, I was only doing a light flight and hovering at the time of the motor cut out.

Since I have flown much more demandingly of high currents and no problems. Either it has got a mind of its own or I have changed something in the setup to prevent it.

One thing I know I did was re-program the ESC. I used the same settings as I had before which was the defaults other than the BEC being set to 6V. I've wondered if the problem had anything to do with the 3GX throttle calibration being done after programming the ESC. At least, it seems to be a pattern in the previous times this has happened. This last time I reprogrammed the ESC I didn't touch the 3GX throttle calibration.

Are you running the 3GX? If so, try doing the throttle calibration, then the ESC programming. It probably has nothing to do with the issue, but the fact that I have had over 50 successful flights after doing this and with the ESC before it was happening every four flights, I don't understand it.

Originally Posted by ahahn

Just jumping in here again. Just to say I am not completely familiar with your setup, but you do realize that with your setup, you need to draw roughly twice the amps to pull the same power out of a 3s pack as someone who is running a 6s setup. Is that ESC really rated for that current? Your higher Kv motor will nicely do that of course (pull the amps), but whether the ESC survives is another question.

Maybe you have stated elsewhere that you resized the ESC--I didn't see that on a quick cursory look at the posts.

Well I have wondered about this and had hoped Align knew a little bit about what they were doing. Certainly I would say the ESC is at its limits with the 3S setup. When its not doing this however, other than the slight temperature at the end of a flight, it does quite well.

Originally Posted by crashnrox

Are you looking at the settings on the align esc before using it? I had that problem and found that both esc s I had came with governor mode enabled. Reprogrammed esc and all was good.

Unless the startup beep sequence was a lie, I should have been set to helicopter mode 1 with soft start. I've actually never tried the governor (knowingly). I hear it's not good by most.

[jml79]

Just to put the current issue to bed, I fly a 450 3s with a CC Talon 35 and have never had anything larger than a 40A. No issues to report. Maybe if you are spinning your head at 3500rpm plus and doing hard smack 3D you will need 45-50A but most people will be fine with a 35-40A Esc.

[Wolfpackin]

I would definitely check the ESC programming, as mentioned, because it's possible it is not programmed for your setup. Never assume things are correct from the factory.

Also, are you sure the pinion to main gear mesh is correct?
Sounds like it might be very tight causing excessive load and current draw. That will also put a lateral load on the motor bearings possibly causing the squeal you heard.

[jankruis]

One thing I know I did was re-program the ESC. I used the same settings as I had before which was the defaults other than the BEC being set to 6V. I've wondered if the problem had anything to do with the 3GX throttle calibration being done after programming the ESC. At least, it seems to be a pattern in the previous times this has happened. This last time I reprogrammed the ESC I didn't touch the 3GX throttle calibration.

Are you running the 3GX? If so, try doing the throttle calibration, then the ESC programming. It probably has nothing to do with the issue, but the fact that I have had over 50 successful flights after doing this and with the ESC before it was happening every four flights, I don't understand it.

Yes, I am running the 3GX and did the throttle calibration as part if the 3GX set up. I actually never programmed the ESC - the default setting just seemed to be fine. I will definitely reprogram it from scratch and see what that does. So, thanks for the tip. In my case, I don't think I was any where near the Amps limit when it stopped working, so I don't think that was the problem here (as was also suggested by others).

I was looking at possibly using another vendors ESC - I lost a bit of confidence in the Align one. CC seems to be a good option, but I am not sure there is enough space between the motor and the battery release tab. I rather not have to find a different space for it. Of course, the size of the CC ESC depends on what Amp rating you pick. It seems people are confident that the 35 may be sufficient (CC Talon 35), so maybe I try that. Does it fit?

Of course, right now I am out on business so will not be able to try anything until Saturday at the earliest.

But thanks everyone for your advise and suggestions.

[jankruis]

I would definitely check the ESC programming, as mentioned, because it's possible it is not programmed for your setup. Never assume things are correct from the factory.

Also, are you sure the pinion to main gear mesh is correct?
Sounds like it might be very tight causing excessive load and current draw. That will also put a lateral load on the motor bearings possibly causing the squeal you heard.

Yes, I plan to reprogram the ESC as soon as I can.
I made sure the pinion to the main gear is correct. Note though that when the squealing starts the motor is not turning at all - at 0 throttle no squeal, anything else, plenty of squeal and motor, gears, etc all dead still. I have even tried turning the motor by hand - no problem. Just does not stop the squealing or start the motor running.

[Sefrez]

Originally Posted by jankruis

Yes, I plan to reprogram the ESC as soon as I can.
I made sure the pinion to the main gear is correct. Note though that when the squealing starts the motor is not turning at all - at 0 throttle no squeal, anything else, plenty of squeal and motor, gears, etc all dead still. I have even tried turning the motor by hand - no problem. Just does not stop the squealing or start the motor running.

Yes, this sounds like the issue I have been having, exactly. I could see how one might think it to be a meshing issue, but when you hear it, you know its the ESC by the sound that is made. It drives the motor at a high frequency (oscillating it) like a speaker.

You don't want to be flying and this happen. The motor seems to come to a direct stop like the ESC goes completely out of phase and fights the motor rotation. The one-way bearing then takes on all the travel from blade rotation, which is actually quite high in resistance. The heli drops like a rock.

It's nothing like an auto-rotation landing where you cut the throttle and the motor slows down. It's like a throttle cut with a brake.

As far as the CC ESC's. The Phoenix edge lite (50A) fits in the dominator and I believe quite a few are using it. All cases that I have seen however are 6S users. I have been wanting to get the heat sink version (not "lite"), but it's quite large and I'm unsure it would fit. If I knew it would work, I'd buy it in a heart beat.

Just some advice, but take it with a grain of salt as it might just be me. If you have thought about it, or pass by it in the future, don't bother with the Hobbywing platinum V3 ESC if you are using the 3200KV dominator motor. For me, this ESC didn't seem to have the start power to get the motor going properly.

[jankruis]

Ok - here we go....

Equipped with a spare Align ESC and motor (identical to the originals), I tried the following (note that FAIL means the exact same failure behavior was the result - motor gets stuck in the high pitched squeal):

1) I programmed the ESC in the standard 1, 2, 1, 2, 3 beeps setting -> FAIL.
2) Replaced the ESC with a new replacement of the exact same type and programmed it 1,2,1,2,3 -> FAIL.
3) Put the old ESC back (as it had the soldered connector on it) and replaced the motor -> FAIL.

So, at this point, it was clear that it was not a specific ESC or motor issue, and that just programming the ESC wasn't it either.

So, I decided to start playing with the ESC settings:
4) Reprogrammed the ESC and set the Electronic Timing Option (the 2nd setting) to Low -> FAIL (but even sooner than before..hint!).
5) Reprogrammed the ESC and set the Electronic Timing Option to High and also set the BEC voltage to 6V -> SUCCESS.

Have made 5 flights so far, and all good Yeah! The ESC is now in the 1,3,1,2,3 beeps setting.

Is the issue the Electronic Timing setting for this 3S, 3200kV motor option? Maybe. I don't think I can make that conclusion yet. I would have to reset that timing option to Low or Medium and see if the problem comes back. Not planning to do that for now - why mess with success.

Anyone need a new Align 3200kV motor or BL45X ESC?

Thanks for all the tips!

[Sefrez]

I'm glad you figured out a way to make it work. When this first happened to me, I thought maybe it could be a timing issue. I tried low timing for a couple flights back when I installed a new BL45X ESC. But that reduced the head speed too much - I didn't like it.

I never tried high timing. How are temps coming down? I know the ESC runs pretty hot for me with mid timing. I imagine high timing would make it hotter, but who knows if the higher timing happens to be more efficient in the end.

[jankruis]

Originally Posted by Sefrez

I'm glad you figured out a way to make it work. When this first happened to me, I thought maybe it could be a timing issue. I tried low timing for a couple flights back when I installed a new BL45X ESC. But that reduced the head speed too much - I didn't like it.

I never tried high timing. How are temps coming down? I know the ESC runs pretty hot for me with mid timing. I imagine high timing would make it hotter, but who knows if the higher timing happens to be more efficient in the end.

Temp seems ok. Have only flown in Normal mode so far. I measured a temp of 106 F (41 C) on the ESC after a 7 minute flight. The manual states that temperature protection kicks in at 80 C, so this measured temp is rather modest,

So far, I have mostly been working on the CG. The heli is tail heavy. I assume in the 3S set up the battery is rather light (compared to a 6S battery). I can only move it forward in the tray so much before it is impossible to put on the canopy.. For now, I duct taped some lead in the nose of the canopy - that worked rather well.

Perfect flying weather here in the mid west today, so got in another 5 flights.

[Sefrez]

Originally Posted by jankruis

Temp seems ok. Have only flown in Normal mode so far. I measured a temp of 106 F (41 C) on the ESC after a 7 minute flight. The manual states that temperature protection kicks in at 80 C, so this measured temp is rather modest,

So far, I have mostly been working on the CG. The heli is tail heavy. I assume in the 3S set up the battery is rather light (compared to a 6S battery). I can only move it forward in the tray so much before it is impossible to put on the canopy.. For now, I duct taped some lead in the nose of the canopy - that worked rather well.

Perfect flying weather here in the mid west today, so got in another 5 flights.

That doesn't sound bad.

As for the weight, same thing noticed here. The 3S batteries do end up being lighter, but not by much with differing capacities.

After getting pulse battery packs (a little heavier than the align) the tail is still a bit heavy. I don't seem to notice it in flight though. The 3GX seems to compensate.

Did you ever fly without the added weight to see if there was much of a change?

[jankruis]

Originally Posted by Sefrez

That doesn't sound bad.

As for the weight, same thing noticed here. The 3S batteries do end up being lighter, but not by much with differing capacities.

After getting pulse battery packs (a little heavier than the align) the tail is still a bit heavy. I don't seem to notice it in flight though. The 3GX seems to compensate.

Did you ever fly without the added weight to see if there was much of a change?

I am flying with the Align 3S 50C battery (173 grams) compared to the Align 6S/45C battery that weighs 230 grams. Yes, initially I flew without the added weight. The heli would slowly tilt backwards for which I had to compensate. Maybe something I could have fixed by modifying a 3GX setting but I didn't try. After adding the weight that problem was gone and the heli now hovers stably with hands off (at least for a couple seconds....). I'll check for some heavier/more powerful 3S batteries. Would be nice to replace that dead weight with some useful weight.

[Sefrez]

Originally Posted by jankruis

I am flying with the Align 3S 50C battery (173 grams) compared to the Align 6S/45C battery that weighs 230 grams. Yes, initially I flew without the added weight. The heli would slowly tilt backwards for which I had to compensate. Maybe something I could have fixed by modifying a 3GX setting but I didn't try. After adding the weight that problem was gone and the heli now hovers stably with hands off (at least for a couple seconds....). I'll check for some heavier/more powerful 3S batteries. Would be nice to replace that dead weight with some useful weight.

I haven't weighed my pulse batteries, but they are specified at about 200 grams. They helped over the align 3S, but not greatly given I could not push them as forward as the align (thicker battery and lower gauge wire taking up more space).

What 3GX version are you running? I was getting all kinds of weird cyclic drift on 5.0. On 4.0 I can let the heli hover hands off for several seconds.

[jankruis]

Originally Posted by Sefrez

What 3GX version are you running? I was getting all kinds of weird cyclic drift on 5.0. On 4.0 I can let the heli hover hands off for several seconds.

In stead of using the mini disk that came with the 3GX - who has a CD-drive in his laptop these days - I down loaded the 3GX 5.0 sw version from the Align web site.
I used the sw to set the Flight Mode Settings - way more convenient. But did not want to do that with the 3GX still being on 4.0, so I first upgraded the 3GX sw to 5.0. So, never flew with the 4.0 sw. I have not experienced any cyclic drift.

I set the flight mode parameters to the "easy/stable" values that were recommended in the 3GX set up video on the rc-help web site. Have you used those as well?

The dials on the 3GX it self are at the 2PM location (both).

As we are talking set up - here a bit more:

I use a Futaba 6J radio (that I happened to have with the associated Futaba receiver). I have also a Spektrum dx6i but don't have the satellite receivers required . So, I installed the Futaba receiver. Finding a good place for that was not easy - the connectors stand up straight using a lot of (vertical) space. It ended up on top of the plate that holds the 3GX on the bottom, but than moved way forward to make sure the connectors don't interfere with the main gear.. I also had to make the connection switch for the pitch (ch 6 ) and the throttle channel (ch 3) that so conveniently was drawn completely wrong in the manual.

In the end this all worked out quite nicely and it looks very clean with very few wires visible from the out side.

I still have the free space on the plate behind the anti-rotation brace. At some point, I may get a IKON controller and play with that one. It seems to have some nice features, like an auto leveling function, and a much more simple interface to program.

[Sefrez]

Originally Posted by jankruis

In stead of using the mini disk that came with the 3GX - who has a CD-drive in his laptop these days - I down loaded the 3GX 5.0 sw version from the Align web site.
I used the sw to set the Flight Mode Settings - way more convenient. But did not want to do that with the 3GX still being on 4.0, so I first upgraded the 3GX sw to 5.0. So, never flew with the 4.0 sw. I have not experienced any cyclic drift.

I set the flight mode parameters to the "easy/stable" values that were recommended in the 3GX set up video on the rc-help web site. Have you used those as well?

The dials on the 3GX it self are at the 2PM location (both).

As we are talking set up - here a bit more:

I use a Futaba 6J radio (that I happened to have with the associated Futaba receiver). I have also a Spektrum dx6i but don't have the satellite receivers required . So, I installed the Futaba receiver. Finding a good place for that was not easy - the connectors stand up straight using a lot of (vertical) space. It ended up on top of the plate that holds the 3GX on the bottom, but than moved way forward to make sure the connectors don't interfere with the main gear.. I also had to make the connection switch for the pitch (ch 6 ) and the throttle channel (ch 3) that so conveniently was drawn completely wrong in the manual.

In the end this all worked out quite nicely and it looks very clean with very few wires visible from the out side.

I still have the free space on the plate behind the anti-rotation brace. At some point, I may get a IKON controller and play with that one. It seems to have some nice features, like an auto leveling function, and a much more simple interface to program.

I did use those recommended settings for the 3GX back when I was learning. Since I have increase roll rates and reduced dampening. Both have worked fine on 4.0. Not sure about the old settings on 5.0 given that version run was more recent for me.

I actually have a very similar setup to you. I'm using a Walkera Devo 10 transmitter and so a standard receiver. Like you, the receiver would not fit on the bottom because of the wire connections. This forced it to be on the top as you say, and therefore the 3GX on the bottom.

I am interested in the IKON too. Seems to do well. The 3GX is working for me right now, but it definitely has some odd tendencies.

[Solmanbandit]

I am interested in the IKON too. Seems to do well. The 3GX is working for me right now, but it definitely has some odd tendencies.

I am sure that you would notice a night and day difference between the two.

[Ben74]

i think i've run into this same problem with align's RCE-BL45X ESC. here's the crash report i posted in another thread https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=6148427

my 450L dominator crashed yesterday due to a failure of some sort. i'm not quite sure what the failure was, so i'd be interested to hear some opinions. i was flying at about 60 ft, doing some tic-tocs, when i heard a sound of some sort, and then the heli stopped responding to my commands. it went straight down in an inverted attitude and landed on the head, with power on. i was giving it negative pitch, but like i said the heli didn't seem to respond to any stick inputs. i'm not sure what the sound was because it happened so fast.

i do seem to remember a high pitched whine as the heli was falling from the sky. this matches up with sefrez's account of his ESC failure. i'm running 6S and the 1800kv motor. i had the timing set to medium.

i'm definitely ditching this ESC. what a disappointment.

[Solmanbandit]

i'm definitely ditching this ESC. what a disappointment.

I ditched align esc's a few years back after I had two of them burn up on me.

[Kinetic One]

I don't know if this is useful but a friend accidently bumped the throttle on his 450 3gx Pro as he was setting it down in the back of his SUV. He stopped the blades with his hand, while, at the same time moved the stick down to 0% throttle. All that took less than one second. It burnt out not only the ESC but also the motor.

Recently my 450 PRO converted to DFC/3GX has literally fallen out of the shy. Very similar to what you mentioned; loud squeal, no response, happened very fast. It was only 20 feet or so off the ground and fortunetly it landed in freshly disced dirt so there was no damage. Inspection showed nothing wrong or broken. I changed battery and took off again. No problem. But several flights later it happened again. As I rebuilt it, I noticed the one-way bearing had spun in the housing. That was the squeal and lack of power. Green Loctite to secure it and no more problems.

Hope this helps.Sorry for the lengthy story

[Ben_M]

Originally Posted by Sefrez

Hello vmecbu,

Thanks for the response. I've been trying to find someone else with the problem I have been having.

Could you elaborate on the problem you had? Like would you be flying and all of a sudden the motor goes into a high pitch scream and you lose torque (helicopter falls out of the sky)? Also, was this with a 450L and 3S or 6S?

Thanks again.

EDIT:
What the heck, I just pulled the trigger on the hobbywing. I hope it works well with the 3200KV dominator motor.

Originally Posted by jankruis

I have a very similar problem with the stock motor/ESC (460MX and RCE-BL45X) on the 450L Dominator 3S kit. After completing the build, I was test running the motor on the bench. Below 50% throttle every runs just fine - ran it for several minutes. Then after increasing the throttle, suddenly the motor cuts out and starts produces a high pitched whine. All controls on the heli still work just fine.The whine stops when I bring the throttle to 0. Increasing it just re-starts the whine. I think the motor gets in a high oscillation - both the motor and ESC heat up quickly in this state.

I unplugged the motor from the ESC, and plugged it back in - no change, same whine.
Unplugging the battery from the ESC and plugging it back in and everything works again and I can start the cycle all over. It does the same thing every time.

It must be a problem with the ESC, so I ordered a replacement. Also posted a question to the store where I bought the kit. At a certain current draw the ESC must get is some state that only power cycling brings it out off. It certainly does not recover on its own - making sure there was not peak current of over heating protection kicking in, I have waited for 10 minutes - but no change.

Obviously not flying the heli in this state - which is a bummer. Everything else looks really good.

Hi Sefrez and jankruis,

I have the same problem with the same helicopter (450L 3S). My analysis is pointing the batteries' discharge rate as the cause of the problem.

Could you please let us know what is the discharge rate (C rate) of the batteries with which the motor stopped? Were they 50C?

Thanks

[Sefrez]

I couldn't say for sure. I run both 45C and 65C pulse batteries. Don't recall which I was using with the failures. Still, when I had the failures, I wasn't doing high current maneuvers, just hovering.