Changing 600Pro Tail Gear Ratio

[maarset]

Originally Posted by smaze17

Dino - you still haven't addressed the issue of the blades not being approved for the 2500 HS you say the Pro should be run at. How can we run 2500 if the blades that come with the heli aren't approved for that HS????

S

I doubt we will ever get an answer on that one. I hope align 600 blades have safety wires in them if you are going to fly at 2500 HS.

[smaze17]

Personally I just can't see why anyone in their right mind would want to fly this machine at 2500!!!!!

But what do I know



S

[Tenguru]

Originally Posted by Dino Spadaccini

... But you still are a pilot for Grand Rc which is an Align Dist and Retailer if you feel you are helping try and look at from a Corp point of view.
....

"Heli FREAK.com. Fun. Learning. Friendship and Mutual Respect" ... "from a Corp point of view" ???

I really hope this forum does not end up being driven by anything other than useful information being shared between like minded RC helicopter aficionados. OTS et al did a favor to the community by pointing out the new tail gear drive ratio. RC pilots can then make an informed decision on how they want to set up and fly (or not fly) this helicopter. This information has and will continue to help people avoid costly and potentially dangerous crashes.

Admins, why would you un-sticky this thread? How does that help the end users of this product?

As noted many times in this thread, but never addressed by Align or their factory pilots is the disconnect between running 2500+ RPMs, and the printed warnings on the Align 600mm blades. In the event of injury as the result of running such speeds, has Align given themselves an 'out' by printing the warning not to exceed 2100 RPMs on the packaging of the 600mm blades? By running a slower head speed using the solutions presented in this thread, one can operate a little closer to the stated margin of safety. That alone is enough reason to keep this thread a sticky.

[smaze17]

Personally, I will be flying my 600 Pro as a totally stock ship because I basically fly around in circles with a couple flips thrown in for good measure. Therefore, the gear ratio thing won't affect me too much I reckon. However, I absolutely appreciate Snap's and everyone else's insight and suggestions for a very easy fix/mod that will prevent the tail from blowing out at lower (sane) headspeeds so thanks guys

Furthermore, as an impartial participant in this thread, I DO NOT feel that OTS was ever "bashing" Align. Quite the contrary. One of the main purposes of this website is the sharing of information. I find it hard to believe that Align would object to endorsing a mod (it's not really even a mod) that will prevent it's customers from experiencing tail blowouts/crashes due to less tail authority AT LOWER HEADSPEEDS with the lower tail gear ratio??????



-Spence

[maarset]

This reminds me of the geometry issue with the 450 pro tail. With tail servo at 90 degrees the tail blades were not going against the torque of the main rotor. I don't think they ever did anything about that. Is the 600 pro tail geometry ok ?

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by maarset

This reminds me of the geometry issue with the 450 pro tail. With tail servo at 90 degrees the tail blades were not going against the torque of the main rotor. I don't think they ever did anything about that. Is the 600 pro tail geometry ok ?

Yah, no issues. Same basic tail as the 550e and 700e.

Thanks for the support guys! I truly appreciate it!

[Commodore8888]

I'm a bit surprised that any good engineer at Align would get burned by folks giving criticism of a design. I've had designs get some aspects "boo-hissed" and if someone gave me a legitimate concern, I'd look into the idea and if it worked, implement it.

Better designs always come from good review. If we were all in here saying the pro needs to run at 1200 headspeed he'd have all the right to call us tards . This is not the case and there is legitimate concern about needing to run 2500HS when 2250 does the same as well as the very pressing issue of blades being rated to 2100.

Align says they are bumping the rating up. Like I've said before I'd like to know why. Were the old blades under rated, are the new ones stronger, or is this a case of nothing has blown up yet, so it should be ok. (The latter is extremely dangerous with any machine, especially ones that fail catastrophically when they do go)

But as a RBE myself I can say the majority of the info posted in this thread is very useful to anyone who want's to use a governor (read...everyone these days). 2500HS works with fixed endpoints but honestly the kit ships with one of the best Gov's on the market making FP's moot. Curious as to why the unsticky.

And for the record I never saw OTS bashing Align, nor did I see any of his involvement with Grand RC have a bearing on what he's talking about.

I personally love my 600E after using 105's and or the tail gearing change. I can say from experience it's very well thought out machine....just except for that tail thing

[smaze17]

Originally Posted by Commodore8888

I'm a bit surprised that any good engineer at Align would get burned by folks giving criticism of a design. I've had designs get some aspects "boo-hissed" and if someone gave me a legitimate concern, I'd look into the idea and if it worked, implement it.

Better designs always come from good review. If we were all in here saying the pro needs to run at 1200 headspeed he'd have all the right to call us tards . This is not the case and there is legitimate concern about needing to run 2500HS when 2250 does the same as well as the very pressing issue of blades being rated to 2100.

Align says they are bumping the rating up. Like I've said before I'd like to know why. Were the old blades under rated, are the new ones stronger, or is this a case of nothing has blown up yet, so it should be ok. (The latter is extremely dangerous with any machine, especially ones that fail catastrophically when they do go)

But as a RBE myself I can say the majority of the info posted in this thread is very useful to anyone who want's to use a governor (read...everyone these days). 2500HS works with fixed endpoints but honestly the kit ships with one of the best Gov's on the market making FP's moot. Curious as to why the unsticky.

And for the record I never saw OTS bashing Align, nor did I see any of his involvement with Grand RC have a bearing on what he's talking about.

I personally love my 600E after using 105's and or the tail gearing change. I can say from experience it's very well thought out machine....just except for that tail thing

Great post man

It's not bashing, it's called constructive criticism! And if Align were smart they would listen as opposed to getting defensive.


S

[Nko15]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Fixed.

Ok.

to make the Dino+Designer story short:

THAN WHY DID THEY MAKE THAT NEW M0.6 GEAR!!!

Done. they knew the problem.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by Nko15

Ok.

to make the Dino+Designer story short:

THAN WHY DID THEY MAKE THAT NEW M0.6 GEAR!!!

Done. they knew the problem.

I think it exists to support upgrading the 600esp and 600n to the new One-Way-Bearing. The new OWB adds a radial bearing to prevent lock-ups, and is a huge improvement over the old OWB.

I hear a v2 450 pro is coming out that runs stock 4000 RPM. Prob has a new tail gear ratio as well? So the trend continues.

[Helico-pteron]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I hear a v2 450 pro is coming out that runs stock 4000 RPM. Prob has a new tail gear ratio as well? So the trend continues.

[Helico-pteron]

Result for calculation:
Estimated lowest voltage during flight: 10,23
Lowest RPM (due to voltage and efficiency) : 3130

(calculated for 100% throttle curve)
Hover RPM at beginning of flight: 4007
Hover RPM at middle of flight: 3690
Hover RPM at end of flight: 3561

[Commodore8888]

4k rpm....I guess this means popcorn and a lawn chair on the sidelines to see how many helis start exploding.

You can FEA all day and it can tell you "sure it'll work", but there are those times...

Our mech division found that out when they noticed that not having idler wheels on the upper run of a rubber track assembly = vibrating track = vibrating robot :/

[rotaryguy]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I hear a v2 450 pro is coming out that runs stock 4000 RPM. Prob has a new tail gear ratio as well? So the trend continues.

Same tail gear ratio - slightly lower kv MX motor but 1 tooth more on the included pinion.
http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product...oducts_id=3976

[smaze17]

How do you guys think these would do:

http://www.experiencerc.com/store/ma...90-p-4375.html

Probably wouldn't need to raise the tail up plus obviously much more tail authority with the additional 7mm???


S

[trainwreck]

First off I would just like to throw in that you Can Not compare the 600pro to the L600. Two Entirely Different machines. I wouldn't Feel Good about ANY belt driven Heli spinning 2200. Im not positive on all the specs but I can assure you the L600 on 10S or even 12S is a LIGHTER Heli than the 600pro hands down. Lighter helis you want a lower head speed because the more RPM you get going with the less weight the more (floaty) the bird will feel. Ive flown Logos at 2100 which felt like the sweet spot for me on that Heli. But you cant compare Jaime's XFC win at 2200rpm on a Logo to what feels or works best for the pro. I'd put $20 on it if Jaime were flying the 600 pro he would bump it up another 100-200 rpm or so to get it to his liking. but even then 2300-2400 doesn't really feel like that much on this Heli. IMO

Right off the bat on the pro I didn't use a tach or chase a number, I chased the feeling of what Felt best to me and then tacked it. I am also a big fan of governors and am running the Kontronik 120 on my 600. I found that I met both Align and OTS half way on the Head speed and like 2300 in idle one and 2340 in idle two (GOVERNED)

The First 50-60 flights I was running the 3GX and 95mm tail blades experiencing Really no tail blow outs. I don't mean to sound like a wuss but that system Really is FAST, A little to fast for me!

I wanted to mimic some of OTS's Flight Maneuvers at lower RPM's Described in Earlier post's that encourage tail blow outs, using the Vbar and 95mm on the tail. fast Funnels, Fast hurricanes, Piro loops, Piro eights, piro tic tocs, Hard stops exc.

Since My 700E is down I Raped The Vbar off of her so I could test it out on the 600. I First tried snaps mod with the Raking of the skid and 105 tail's to see what I was up against. I have to admit it felt pretty dam good with the extra tail authority! But only after the 4th flight I stripped my Front Umbrella gear while doing pirouetting tic tocs.

After that I put the stock 95mm tail blades back on and have been flying it for over 40 flights with no blow outs at 2300-2340 rpm and 12-13 on pitch (MANAGED) . My E700 fly's at 2120-2200 rpm on a bank switch and felt the pro needed a little bit more than that with the 600mm blades and weight ratio. Like I said I didn't tach it till I found what I liked, and that's the Number my thumbs liked best. As you can see I am getting about 5 minutes doing moderate to semi hard 3d using pulse 3700 65C packs. taking each cell down to approx 3.65-3.70 a piece.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRXYPI4QDU&feature=player_profilepage[/ame]

Keep in mind I am not a TEAM PILOT for Align however I am a local Field Rep for assurance RC who is a main distributor for align. I am simply throwing in my 2 cents. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but only what I have found and what worked best for me.

Dino, Sir I don't know you personally OR OTSnap for that matter but from seeing his Other post's I know his intentions were not to attack align. Ive actually seen him defend the 600pro to quite a few people because he truly does love the machine. No reason to interpret Alex's feelings or bring in the corporate bombshell to a public forum

Darrin

[matchbox]

102mm blades does sound like another option. Even among the 95mm blades you can find some with a wider cord. To helps with more bite at lower tail RPM.
I do like the idea of using the old 600e tail ratio set with the 95mm, so i have more tail blade ground clearance. But it then rules out upping the governor speed with any ease because its harder to change gear ratios at the field.
I also don't like the idea of running lower throttle curves that much because of the load it puts on the ESC.

[OnTheSnap]

Hey Trainwreck,
Great post. Good to know the tail holds under hard flight conditions at 2340. The highest headspeed I ran tests on was 2250 and would still get blow outs with 95mm.

As far as weight goes, mine came in at 8.6lb with Voltz 3700mah. What's your AUW? A friends Logo600 with 10s5000 mah is at 9lb. With 5s4000 he's around 8.7lb or so. So I don't think weight is to blame for your headspeed cravings. It's likely your T700 running at 2200RPM.

WRT the tail gear failure, what headspeed were you running? Equivalent tail loading at 2250 with 105's is 2500 with 95's.

Great flying btw. Like the fast piro tic tocs, sideways flip tocs, and piro moebius. All things I'm trying to get into my routine this year.

[matchbox]

OTS That sound a lot to heavy. Maybe you mean LBs not KGs

[cb3d]

Fantastic flight trainwreck, could be the best Ive seen on this bird.