Is a bigger heli more dangerous to a noob?

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by flyinghigh450

This 6 month old noob about lost his life to the so called safer 450 size heli so no,bigger isn't more dangerous to noob's..Just shows you shouldn't think a 450 size heli is safer because it's small and cute or has slower tip speed.Some people don't get it but I really hope this is a eye opener.

Heli he was flying was called a 3D twister ...Hope he recover's fast and glad he's able to talk about it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW3Dx-YPOy0

I realize that we will never convince you that the physics involved dictate that the larger a heli is, the more dangerous it is, so I'm hoping we have convinced a few noobs that had not made up their minds yet and sensitize a few others of the risks involved. All helis are dangerous, large helis are more dangerous. You can minimize the risk starting small and by treating each heli with the proper level of respect.

I just feel those first months with a stick in your hands are a critical time to be flying something a bit more forgiving since most people will screw up in a way that will leave the heli completely out of control. This is all about controlling risks.

Personally, I don't start people out with 450s anymore. I start them with an MCP-X and a sim. I recommend that they get to the point where they can safely fly upright, hovering, figure eights and such, then I recommend they go to something bigger and more stable. Its tradeoff between risk and cost. Then, the sky is the limit.

It is so easy with the internet and today's prices to come into the hobby cold and have no experts around to properly guide you and help you out. I'd prefer to have to have these people come in safely.

Can some people start safely with a larger heli in the right situation, absolutely. Can you hurt yourself really bad with any size heli, absolutely. I just want to minimize the risk for the majority of people coming into the hobby.

Rick

[flyinghigh450]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

I realize that we will never convince you that the physics involved dictate that the larger a heli is, the more dangerous it is, so I'm hoping we have convinced a few noobs that had not made up their minds yet and sensitize a few others of the risks involved. All helis are dangerous, large helis are more dangerous. You can minimize the risk starting small and by treating each heli with the proper level of respect.

I just feel those first months with a stick in your hands are a critical time to be flying something a bit more forgiving since most people will screw up in a way that will leave the heli completely out of control. This is all about controlling risks.

Personally, I don't start people out with 450s anymore. I start them with an MCP-X and a sim. I recommend that they get to the point where they can safely fly upright, hovering, figure eights and such, then I recommend they go to something bigger and more stable. Its tradeoff between risk and cost. Then, the sky is the limit.

It is so easy with the internet and today's prices to come into the hobby cold and have no experts around to properly guide you and help you out. I'd prefer to have to have these people come in safely.

Can some people start safely with a larger heli in the right situation, absolutely. Can you hurt yourself really bad with any size heli, absolutely. I just want to minimize the risk for the majority of people coming into the hobby.

Rick

I honestly do agree with you Rick but to me,a 450 isn't any better starting off than a 700 for noob's.But they have a higher chance of getting beat to death with a 450 vs a 700.Many new pilot's started with bigger heli's and you don't see them in the safty section posting pic's/video's of them getting beat or cut up by them like all these 450/500 size post.People starting with bigger heli's have common sense,well the one's I seen have it..If they don't,the out come will be close to the same or worse either way.No pun but your right,me and the other's will never be convinced.You know as well as I do that many other's see this just like I do and alot posted in this thread.Im picked out because I post more about it ..
To me and many other's a 700 size is better for noob's.WAY more control,easyer to see so it's put out 30+ft vs 4-5ft with a 450 which about every noob does..When noob's see a 50/700 size heli spool up,they step back ALOT ..
Look at the start of this video.Now I set my 700 out 15+ ft all the time which is more than safe enough for me.Watch what I say to the guy in my videoThis guy's hasn't seen a 700 size heli fly in person until mine.He fly's a 500 size heli and take's off maybe 5ft from him.When people see a 50/700 size heli fly for the first time,they know better which IMO make's them safer..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gey7JhC7aao[/ame]

New pilot's will stay 30+ ft away from a 700 size heli but have no problem's standing 5ft away from a 450/500 size heli and why is that?People come on here making them sound much safer,then there posting pic's and video's in this section..

[azn_ace]

Originally Posted by SandMan123

A 450 isn't going to kill anyone, but it can cause injury.

Even a 450 is a flying lawnmower. A flying lawnmower can kill someone.

I can't believe why people suggest 450 and larger to noobs. This is irresponsible IMO.
I've seen too many videos of noobs flying 450 and larger heli's in public parks with people around. This is going to get this hobby banned from parks.

If you're a noob, start with a small heli. I don't buy the BS that larger is better for noobs because of stability. This is MORE than offset with the downtime you'll face after a crash compared to small CP helis like mCPX and Genius CP that keep flying after a crash.

[seanh]

the irresponsible part is flying at a public park not the choice in helicopter.

[nick779]

as a beginner myself (i honestly think im past the noob stage), ive made some stupid mistakes, but i still started out with an msr, then a few weeks later got a mcpx, sim and dx6i from a friend for $300, then a month later i got my blade 450, and a month of the 450 of subpar quality made me want a better heli, and im going with a trex 450 pro with uBeast..

if i could do it again, id still get the msr, then the sim and either a dx8 or a futaba 8fgs, then the trex 450 sport or pro.

now i want a bigger heli, but i feel like im not ready for it and my skills arent proficient enough with my 450 for me to feel comfortable flying a 500 or 550 in the park i fly in...

now granted i know the risks now, and i dont spool my 450 on the ground while holding the tail anymore, but i still have lots to learn....

i went to my first funfly and saw my first 600 and 700 size helis in person, and was intimidated....
i get nervous when ANYONE flys a 600+ heli near me until i know they are in control.
and my eyes are on the bird until it lands just to make sure

hell even kyle stacy had me a bit scared when he was doing funnels, yet he flew the best out of everyone...

[azn_ace]

Originally Posted by seanh

the irresponsible part is flying at a public park not the choice in helicopter.

An mSR is not going to hurt anyone. 450 size and larger and you have real risks.

[kumar2494]

I have been flying for a couple years and have a trex 600 and just got a trex 450 3gx, and they are both very stable. If you are new to flying, go for a 450 or 500 fbl.

[AlphaKilo]

I have to say, I'm a total noob. But, I have about 150 hrs in R-22.

We don't use sims for that. Too easy to horse around. If you pull the snot out of R-22 you'll throw the blades...with you sitting in it. If you let the rotor rev die below 90%, you die. If you bump the mast off, (easy enough) you die.

So, the habits you learn in real heli are the same habits you learn in real motorcycle. (also comes with the size question) Crashing is 100% un-acceptable.

That said, I crashed and re-built my mCPx many times over the last few weeks, and it doesn't cost very much to fix. (dang tail boom) Now I can hover, tail in. And I don't have to go anywhere. I practice twice a day.

So, for $250 (w/rotor head and swash upgrades) I suggest this is the way to go,
if you have a 8'x8' space in the house to learn to hover in all aspects. Learn the controls. Automatic hand-eye, all that. Then go outside, IMHO.

[wulfrun]

First off, let me say I'm a learner - not a total noob but far from proficient. Is a bigger heli more dangerous to a newbie - that's a very open question!

Give a total noob a 600/700 size heli and no instruction or guidance and it's a recipe for disaster. Give him/her proper instruction and a buddy-boxed TX, with instructor on the other end and it's an awful lot safer. Give a total noob an mSR and they can still take an eye out but that's probably as bad as it can get. So, the real answer is "it depends". It can't be denied that a bigger heli has increased potential to do serious harm or damage, plain physics says so. Standing 15-30ft from a 600/700 is no safer than 10ft from a 400/450. If it throws a blade you could still be in line to intercept it in ways you don't want.

Those that learned "properly" on a bigger heli are bound to say it's safe, those that started on a micro and moved up will also be biased. At least nowadays the micros exist, why not take the opportunity they offer? You can start on a micro, learn orientations etc and the speed they react at hones your reflexes, so why not? Those reflexes stand you in good stead later because the bigger ones are more stable, you have more time to correct mistakes.

A sim is only helpful to a degree, I think most would agree it's not the same as flying for real. There are no consequences (and no re-build time or cost), beyond a bit of shame perhaps, in crashing a sim. That probably makes you more reckless?

[oy2503]

I didn't really get started until I bought two Align 450's.

I knew they were very popular - so they would work!
(any problem would somehow lie with me)

The size weren't that intimidating.

Cheap to crash - if it should happen (it didn't, really).

Parts could easily be had from a number of shops.

Now I fly a 500esp - very nice. But I wouldn't have liked it
as a trainer. It does sound intimidating, when it spools up.

I did sim, of course. I bought the Phoenix - best buy out there.

Not that others aren't useful - it matters that you use one -
not as much which one you use.

I would've been scared of a 600 (actually I did - I had an X-Cell46G at first)

I'd say - get someone to help - get a sim - and then buy whatever the others fly,
so they can help you.

If you are alone - get an Align 450 Sport with Hitec65MG servos, a Quark gyro
and a 9257 tail servo. And sim a lot, while you build.

And very probably - your first hops ought to be with a mCx coax or a mSRx single.

Cheers
Erik

Cheers
Erik

[AlphaKilo]

I'm getting better on mcpx, but I agree with the fellow that said it's hard to fly. But, I started on a 3 channel coax and got done with that in a couple of weeks.

I have to be very twiddly yet, relaxed with my right hand to get the lateral motions out and have it hover in a 1 foot cube. I'm starting an EXI 250 build and I hope the weight and size can make it a bit easier to hold still. BTW, the EXI came as a completely assembled airframe, nice fit and finish for $70. I will be able to put together a useful trainer, flybarless for about $400, if I can get it to bind to my DX4e.

[badfrog]

original question: is a bigger heli more dangerous to a noob.
Answer: OF COURSE!!! its more dangerous to anybody!!!

Stick your finger in the mains of an MCPX at full throttle... will it hurt like hell and maybe (probably) break skin? yes!
Stick your leg in the mains of a 700 at full throttle.. might it make you the brunt of a lot of "so there was this one legged guy" jokes? YES!!!

I saw a clip of a a guy flying a scale 500 that the flybarless went wacky on and he lost all control of the heli at about 4 ft up... the heli took off to higher elevations and proceeded to zoom down right at the pilot.... again not at his doing, an electronics failure... crashed into parked truck (thank goodness not a person)... I have crashed my mcpx into my car (completely by accident )... no damage to either the car or the heli... cant say the same for the 500 into the truck!!!!

[Mustang Fever]

The bigger they are, the harder they hit, so yeah, they are inherently more dangerous.

BUT

If I had it all to do over again, I would:

1. Get a lot of hovering sim time: nose out, in, left, right, boxes, etc, on a simulator that is not too easy (like the FMS one). Mine is that Australian one that you download. It has a T Rex 600, and even with the time frame set to 1.5, it is still a lot more difficult to fly that my 700E F3C.

2. Go build a 700E and fly it. Start off with hovering and slow flight not too far away, and work up to flying around the club field.

BUT

There is a LOT to correctly building a 700E. Watching Finless Bob's videos are essential to this process, as is a good helping of mechanical ability and a lot of tools. I had all the hand tools when I started to build mine, but had to purchase a digital pitch gauge; flybar lock; swashplate leveler; ball link caliper adapters; blade balancer; and a 6S pack balancer.

If a newb is not really good mechanically, he/she might be better off to start with a 450 or 500 size kit and work up from there.

I was fortunate to be a graduate of the Helicopter Power Train repair class at Ft. Eustis, VA, in 1968. I learned a lot, but mostly I learned not to be intimidated by helis. They have a lot of moving parts, but are really not as complex as they appear at first glance.

[dasBlade450]

Mustang.....
Kudos on the Ft. Eustis Class......! Learning on the "real deal" no doubt gave you a greater insight to the physics of rotary-wing flight on the "smaller" scale......!
If I were back in high school I'd definitely look into heli training......the NH National Guard stationed in Concord flies and services Blackhawks and Hueys....I had a chance a few years ago to attend an Open House for their new Blackhawk hangar and was awe-struck at the mechanics of rotary-wing craft!!! They had literature out on the different "birds" (theirs and others....) including A&P manuals (display only....no samples.....!!) and FULL specs on the avionics packages for the Blackhawk....
Did I happen to mention......Impressive..../!
Sorry for the OT....to get back ON topic.....
I try to mix sim (Real Flight 6) training with actual flying (Blade mCPx) and find this is the best of both worlds - for ME......There are just enough (at times not so....) subtle differences between the two that, for me, using just one without the other becomes counterproductive......A balance of sim and real flight becomes "one hand washing the other"....I've only been working on my training for about 2 months, and some days are better than others (read: fewer crashes!!!)......But hopefully by Spring it'll all come together and I'll be ready to take to the sky and soar with the eagles (or at least hover pretty good.....!).........
OK....enough rambling from this old geezer.....!
Happy Flying, ALL!!

[AlphaKilo]

Got to agree about the sim. IMO, they all hover a bit too easy to be completely realistic. But, I can at least practice and practice, face in hover. I got Phoenix and a DX6i last week. Plus a complete upgrade for my game computer, but that counts as a different hobby budget, doesn't it?

Also, don't even think about flying around until you can fly around and land a park foamy, rudder and elevator only, in the Sim. That's the other real advantage of the Sim. So, I not only switch back and forth from real to Sim on the mCPx I switch to airplane, float planes, quads, etc in the Sim.

My EXI-250 build is in slow-mo until I get a lot more confidence in the Sim.
I see a virtual $1000 in crashes each day. The sim pays for itself. The auto-rotation training
alone is worth the cost.

But, don't horse around in the Sim. Train like you Fly. Fly like you Train.

[madmedic]

It is very interesting reading peoples views on the subject. I find a lot of factors go into answering the question is a larger heli right for a beginner. People talk about how a bigger can hurt you worse, that is true. The physics (for nerds like me) explain it. p=mv (momentum = mass x velocity). A larger bird will have a lot more momentum (power residing in the moving object) when it hits something or someone (due to larger mass), thus more severe injuries. But due to that same equation it is more stable due to the higher mass and the force required to move that mass. (F=ma^2)

The other side of things is the mentality of the person learning. When I bought my Trex 600EFL Pro last year, even before purchasing I did a lot of research and talking to experienced heli modelers before making the selection and purchasing the heli. I made sure to research the different brands (i.e. the pros and cons), talked to experienced modelers at my local hobby shop, asked questions, and came to this forum. I approached this very carefully and calculated. I entered with the understanding these models are dangerous for everyone, not just me, and can cause severe injuries or death. I think the larger model has been a much better choice due to the stability it offers. I give it the respect it deserves. I also had someone tame down the controls to a level I could handle and learn on. I have not used a buddy-box nor had someone there to guide me. I have watched videos designed to teach you in a step-wise fashion, then gone and tried them with my heli. It has worked well for me. Have I had my crashes.....yes. They have all dealt with the low tail clearance and landing on a grassy area. Do I fly with people around?....no way. Do I understand that if I crash it is going to cost more money....yep. I don't think there is a right answer to the question: is a larger heli right for a beginner. If someone approaches it with the right attitude and right safety precautions it could be a good move. But a lack of respect and cautious attitude could spell disaster.

Like a lot of other people, I did get a Blade mCPx after my 600 for the winter months. I find it harder to fly that my 600, due to the small size but a good option to at least try maneuvers on.

I don't like the sim. I find it is not very similar to the real thing, but that is just me.

Like I stated earlier, just because someone is a "noob" doesn't mean they are going to be more dangerous with a larger heli vs. someone with a smaller heli with the same skills. It is all about approach and mentality. This is all coming from a someone who is still learning. Plus, I like my 600EFL Pro. It has taught me a lot and has proven to be a capable and forgiving machine.

[Laurens]

Thats true, also thats the reason why I voted No on this poll. People with common sense can learn better with a 600 sized heli, and its not necessary more dangerous than something smaller.

[rdlohr]

Update:

I have a friend that I got started on an mCPX a few months back. I let him borrow my old RF sim as well. Between the two, he's flying circuits, doing flips and rolls and definitely is past the initial part of the learning curve that I refer to as "unsafe". That early part where you just are not in control. Actually way past. He's looking into buying a bigger heli now and I can't wait to see him do it, and seeing him progress with it.

I have another friend that I also got started with an mCPX but I didn't think to let him borrow my sim. He never learned to fly it after many failed attempts. He also never hurt himself or anyone else. I offered to find the heli a new home, but he's only out $300 (heli and parts) and he's not ready to part with the heli.

A third friend heard my first friend talking about flying and it convinced him to give it a try so he's buying an mCPX. I'll shift my sim over to him and hope for he best.

Rick

[AlphaKilo]

I got nicked pretty good with my mcpx. I'm just finishing an EXI 250. I hope I have enough sense to get out of the way, next time. I just let it drift into me. Even something as small as the 250 may have removed my finger. <ouch>

So, is a .22 more dangerous than a .50 caliber? The Universe is a dangerous place.

[Addidis]

I got a 700 nexus a while back. I was totally excited about it. I got curious the day before I went to the field for a bud to help me flight check it and checked out a few of these threads on injuries. I was slightly hesitant after that. Then I went to the field the next day and watched him spool up his nearly identical bird. Seeing the thing bounce around from harmonics and a blade that was 1/4 turn too tight was enough for me to see the math. Then he took it up about 6 feet and the gyro had a hiccup. It went around faster then I could see 1.5 times then stuck like glue.

Short answer is damage = mass x acceleration. Any thing bigger then the palm sized ones can cause serious injury. Even those can take an eye from you easily. You really have no idea what kind of force these can put out until you see it. If your not instilled with respect if not fear after seeing even a micro spool up you just don't understand the forces and have no business considering getting into this.

The real answer is neither is safe. Any thing bigger then your palm has the potential to mame you for life. No matter what size it is think of it like a really fast lawnmower with no shroud on the blade hovering in front of your face. Give it the ability to change direction at 70+mph and change altitude at nearly the same rate. This is serious no matter what size it is.

In the end every hobby store should keep a wooden 12 inch ruler on hand 2/16 thick and wack every single newb on the nuckle thin edge on once. If you dont think your micro is dangerous try this once , lightly, so you only bruise your finger and don't break it (clearly this is going to hurt, im not responsible for you doing it but it might save your life) . After they stop screaming from the pain, they should be shown a blade and then shown one spooling up. I can almost guarantee any one who doesn't understand what these are will instantly connect the pain in their finger times 4000 more rpm and know what these are capable of. How many people put their finger back in the flame?

AMA membership should be required to purchase any substantial (>palmsized perhaps rpm governed) helis. Not for the pilot , for those around him.