Want ESC for minimum 8s a123 / 7s Lipo.

[csell]

Hello.

I want to make a conclution on the motor findings so far:

I and many others want to change the Align stock 600L brusless motor to one
with higher voltage rating for using it with a123 packs. What is the options?

For people only flying sports flying it can be aceptable to choose a motor
performing as the 600L, may be lower. The diameter are typical 43mm.

Other people will prefer a motor in the range above the 600L. This motors are
typical 49mm in diameter, except NEU 1515 with a diameter of 1.56" ( 39.7mm )
Priced at $299 it can be the easy and cheapest solution, when you add it all together.

The inside width of my T-Rex 600 CF at different places:

Bottom back = 47,3 mm
Bottom front = 47,3 mm
Top front = 46,9 mm

Absolute max length for a new motor is = 65 + 22 = 87 mm.


As I see it, all motors with a diameter around 49mm will requere cutting in the
align standard frame or baying a new frame designed with the posibilities for
mounting a wider choice of motors. Candidates are Rotorworkz or may be a 600N
frame. As this is designed for a nitro, you must solve how to mount a electrical
brusless motor yourself. Great idea, but never tryed before. You will be the first.

The ø 43mm motors fit, but I now understand why, a lot of them are out of stock.
If you can bay one, and accept the performance, it is a good option I suggest we
continue to investingate.

I choose to show the following information, so you have the oportunity to compare
direct between the different motors:

Regards Carsten




Different brusless motors discussed so far in this tread with links to specifications:

From http://www.align.com.tw/shop/index.p...67&language=en

600L Brushless Motor(1620KV) RCM-BL600L USD$106.99

ø 43.3 mm L 61.15 mm

Input voltage: DC25.2V 6cell Li-Po
Max continuous current: 65A
Max output power:1500W(prox.)
KV value:1620KV
Dimension: spindle 5x61.5x43.3mm
Weight: 280g (prox.)

600XL Brushless Motor(1650KV) RCM-BL600XL USD$116.99

ø 43.3 mm L 65 mm

Input voltageC11.1-22.2V 3-6cell Li-Po
Max continuous current:70A/85A(60sec)
Max output power:Approx. 1600W/2000W(60sec)
KV value:1650KV
Dimension:spindle 5x65x43.3mm
Weight:Approx. 300g

ozace wrote: The 600l and xl are 1650-1800kv and not great options
for 10s a123 packs, I se that now, I show it only for comparison.

Neu 1515/2.5D 10 A123 Neu 1515/1.5Y

From: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/He...lications.html

NEU recomed this motors for the T-rex 600:

Trex 600 1515/2yF Castle 85Hv 10s 3200 LiPo
Trex 600 1512/1.5YF Castle 80 6s 3900 LiPo
Trex 600 1512/2Y Castle 85Hv 8S 3900 LiPo
Trex 600 1910/1Y Castle 85Hv 8s 3200 LiPo
Trex 600 1512/2Y/F Castle 85Hv 8s 3200 LiPo
Trex 600 1912/1YF Castle 85Hv 10s 3200 LiPo

Trex 600 1907/1Y Castle 85Hv 6S 4900 LiPo
Trex 600 1910/1Y Castle 85Hv 8s 4300 LiPo
Trex 600 1912/1Y Castle 85Hv 10S 3900 LiPo

Due to Mercuriell NEU recomandations I choose to show:


From 15xx Series 700 - 3000 Watts: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/15...es%20data.html

Max rpm: 60,000 Case Dia. 1.56" ( 39.7mm )

Neu 1515H/2Y 1100KV Length 2.7" ( 69mm ) $299, Mercuriell uses the 1515H/2.5D 1700KV.



From new 19xx Series - ORK 300 - 3000 Watts: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/19...es%20data.html

Max rpm: 30,000 Case Dia. 1.96" ( 50mm )

Neu 1912H/1Y 825KV Length 2" ( 50.8mm ) $249 Due late July

Neu 1910H/1Y 1050KV Length 1.75" ( 44.5mm ) $192 or $229 Both price come from NEU website, Due late July


From the end of: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Heli%20Motors.html I read:

NEU are happy to introduce a helicopter specific version of our popular 19 series motors.
The first ones to be available are the motors that have proven to be the motor of choice
for the hard flying 3D versions of the Trex 600. For 8S setups the 1910H/1Y is the motor
to beat. On 10 S the 1912H/1Y is the king! Coming soon will be the 1907H/1Y for the 6S
lithium battery fliers.


You can se NEUs own data on: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Mo...st%20data.html


I used this for inch to mm conversions: http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtcht.htm


From: http://www.cmehobbies.com/ProductDet...Show=TechSpecs

confirmed in: http://www.thundertiger4u.com/ripper...c4ebe819e5b51f


Thunder Tiger 2380 OBL 49/08-50 $135.99 - $145.99

ø 49 mm L 61 mm

Product Name OBL49/08-5OH
Voltage Range 8-10S LI-PO BATTERY
KV Rating (rpm-volt) 770 RPM/V
Dimensions 49x61mm (1.929x2.4 in)
Shaft Diameter 5mm
Max Efficient Current 4-60A
Max Surge Current 80A/5S
Internal Resistence 18.4Ù
Weight 355g/12.52oz


From http://wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=ZP30

Z-Power Z30 1110kv Red, AUD$120.00 Out of stock, Exchange rate of AU$ : US$ = 1.30 : 1.00 (Approx) gives: 92.30 US$

ø 43mm, L 61mm

Max Current: 60 Amps
Max Eff: 90%
Poles: 8
KV: 1110
Weight: 276g
Shaft Diameter: 5mm
Shaft Length: 22mm
Input power: 6-10 Li-xxx


ZPower Z50 and Z30

http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=10

( I estimate mecanical sizes from my knowledge from: http://www.rcdepot.com.tw/index.php/cPath/6_15 )

Z-Power Z30A-1100, Price: $114.95 Out of Stock, A very good "standard" Logo 10/Swift 6s LiPo setup.

ø 43mm, L 83mm.

kV: 1110
Io: 2.3A
Rm: 19.6 mOhm
wt: 280gm
5mm shaft

Z-Power Z30A-800, Price: $114.95, A great "high power" setup for a Logo 10 or a Swift, using an 8s LiPo or 10s a123-M1 pack

ø 43mm, L 83mm.

kV: 800
Io: 1.48A
Rm: 34.1 mOhm
wt: 280gm
5mm shaft

Z-Power Z50A-600, Price: $134.95, Best performing 12s motor we tested in a 600-620-bladed model, period. Also works
extremely well with a 15s a123-M1 setup. For either Raptor option, this also makes a great choice for an AP/AV configuration,
using 8s-10s LiPos or 10s2p-4600 a123M1s

ø 49mm, L 61mm.

kV: 565
Io: 1.7A
Rm: 27.5 mOhm
wt: 348 gm
5mm shaft

Z-Power Z50A-800, Price: $134.95, eTitan Conversion/e620SE/Logo 14/MA Razor/3D-MP, A great performer for any 600-620-bladed
model, with a 10s LiPo or a 12s a123-M1 setup. Runs as strong as anything we've tried on 10s, but much cooler.

ø 49mm, L 61mm.

kV: 780
Io: 1.95A
Rm: 20 mOhm
wt: 348 gm
5mm shaft


Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten another point to ponder is how to mount the high cell-count packs. With the stock frame you are limited to a brick on the front. Apparently 10s A123 fits and balances OK, more than that and you start to have to start to get creative.

I believe that the Rotorworkz frame flips the motor up on top and leaves room for batteries to extend inside the frame. This allows the use of shotgun packs (double, single or triangle barrels depending upon number of cells) and fore/aft balance adjustment. See here for photos and discussion: https://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=29339

So although there is a cost to the aftermarket frame, it gives you the freedom to use any motor you like and to easily experiment with a range of pack sizes without having problems with fit and balance.

Rotorworkz frame + Z50A-800 would cost much the same as a Neu motor that fits the stock frame. Of course the Rotorworkz frame plus the Neu 1910H/1Y 1050KV looks like it might be the optimal combination for maximum flexibility and efficiency.

You are going to have to make a decision soon my friend, this analysis paralysis cannot go on for much longer

[csell]

Hello

Specifikations:

a123:
Capacity 2300mAh
Load rating 16/33/50C
Usable current 37/76/115 Amps
Usable energy for 10s: 58J
and for 12s: 69.6J


Voltage under different loads:

Lipo cell = 4.2V peak, 3.7V nominal, 3.6-3.2V under load
A123 cell = 3.6V peak, 3.3V nominal, 3.0-2.5V under load

6s lipo: 25.2 peak, 22.2 nominal, 21.6-19.2 under load
8s A123: 28.8 peak, 26.4 nominal, 24-20 under load
10s A123: 36 peak, 33 nominal, 30-25 under load
12s A123: 43.2 peak, 39.6 nominal, 36-30 under load


Motors:

Z-Power Z30 1110kv Red 6s - 10s lipo 60A

Z-Power Z30A-1100 6S lipo MAX 66A, 2000W. But 19.2V x 66A = 1267W if 6s lipo

## 1910H/1Y 1050KV For 8S lipo

Z-Power Z30A-800 8s LiPo or 10s a123 280g MAX 66A, 2000W. But 25V x 66A = 1650W if 10s a123

Z-Power Z50A-800 10s LiPo or 12s a123 348g MAX 75A, 2000W. But 30V x 75A = 2250W if 12s a123

## 1912H/1Y 825KV On 10s lipo

49/08-50 770KV 8s - 10s lipo max 60A surge 80A

Z-Power Z50 780kv Red 6s - 10s lipo 340g max 60A, 2000W. But 30V x 60A = 1800W if 12s a123
and 25V x 60A = 1500W if 10s a123



I first listed the motors, more or less after the KV rating. ( ## are NEU, better and in a class for itself ) .
Data for the last Z-Power Z50 780kv Red is from wattsuprc, he has now removed the Z30 from his website, was out of stock.

Looked more and more on motors in the 800KV range, mainly because the 1100KV range motors is advertised as 6s lipo.

The maximum current is in the range of 60-66A for all of them, belive it is limited by the wire, constructing etc.
Most of them are limited to 2000W, wundering if that limit is set after how much heat is allowed?

Calculated then how much power is consumed by running at max current at full load voltage for the relevant batteries.

Do you think my calculations is rigth, showing that the max current is the limiting factor?
and not the max power consumed in watt?


All running with 10s a123 or 12s a123 has the same of more power than the stock 600L.

Z30-800 with 8s or Z50-800 with 10s a123 looks better and better to me.
I think one of them is best for some of you and the other is best the others.

I realy considered to try to cut in my frame, If I didn't succed, then could I bay a Rotorworks frame.
But when I loked at my T-Rex 600 and found out how much I had to disasemble, I deceided, not to cut in or change frame.
For me the right solution is to bay a ø 43mm 800KV motor and run it on 10s a123.

But I am sure, that for some of you the best solution will be to go for a stronger ø 49 mm motor, and then make the nessary frame modification and use 12s a123. When you add 2 cells to go to 12 cells, it is possiable to bay a developer Kit 6 cells for $129 from a123 or bay separate cells from rc-lipoly.de i Germany for 16 Euro each.

My advice to all of you that havn't startet to build your T-Rex 600 yet. Consider to cut the holes in the frame allowing the bigger motors before you start to asemble your heli. It is much esyer to cut before you start building.

Tomorrow I plan to calculate expected headspeed and pinion.

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Have just received a answer from rcdepot suggesting this for Z30:

Zpower Z30 1100kv 10T pinion for 10S a123
Zpower Z30 1100kv 9T pinion for 10S Lipo
Zpower Z30 800kv 11T pinion for 10S a123
Zpower Z30 800kv 10T pinion for 10S Lipo


MrMel's Headspeed calculator:

Zpower Z30 1100kv 10T pinion for 10S a123:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 1977 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 1726 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1444 at 23 volt


Zpower Z30 800kv 11T pinion for 10S a123:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 1582 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 1381 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1155 at 23 volt


After trying to adjust for more optimal headspeed:

Zpower Z30 1100kv 11T pinion for 10S a123:

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2175 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 1899 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1588 at 23 volt


Zpower Z30 800kv 15T pinion for 10S a123

RPM at low load (2-4C): 2157 at 31,5 volt
RPM at medium load (13-15C): 1883 at 27,5 volt
RPM at full load (>23C): 1575 at 23 volt

Is 1100KV or 800KV version best for me when I want a ø 43 motor, the Z30?

kgfly sugested previus that I bay 3 pinions, the expected one
and also + and - one teeth.

Please tell me what pinion? when you suggest the 800KV or 1100KV?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Carsten,

Thought you would find this interesting:

Got mine finished last night and test flew it today. All I can say is WOW!!!

My Setup:
HFX G-10 Frames
Z Power Z50A-600 w/14 tooth pinion
CC85HV w/UBEC 6volt
15s A123 batteries

I am not sure what the headspeed is but I first tried it with the 16 tooth pinion and it scared me. I switched to the 14 tooth and it still sounds alot faster than stock 6s w/11t pinion.

[csell]

Hello.

I found a new motor, the Ripper Outrunner Heli OBL 43/11-30H to $95.99 at

http://www.thundertiger4u.com/ripper...c4ebe819e5b51f

I belive it is the same or very similar to ZPower Z30.


Here are 2 links with a lot of pictures on how to disassembly a DeWalt 36v Battery Pack and
How To Build a Battery Pack from A123 Cells:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587606

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599316


And thanks to lovetofly that answer my questen about frame cutting in:

https://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=42761


Kgfly, Thanks I saw it and this come from the same place:

I fly 600 with 13s A123 cells using the Z50 A-800 motor w/ 14t Mikado pinion. It has good power of about 6 minutes. The frames need to be modified to fit the motor with the stock frame. I tried 10s and found it to be about the same power as a quality 6s lipo but with redced flight time. If you want to use more than 12 or 13s I would think the Z50A-600 would be a better choice.


I am more and more considering to try the Z30-800. It gives the same headspeed calculation as the Z50-800, but what differences will I se in my T-rex 600?

Headspeed calculations is only a suggestion on what to try, I have seen suggestion and reports on pinion from 11T to 14T. Here I am considering to order all of 11T, 12,T 13T and 14T pinions. This is 4, but kgfly anyway suggested to bay at least 3.


Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

According to the specifications in that link, the OBL 43/11-30H is only rated for 6s lipo even though the Red Z30 is supposed to be up to 10s

I am more and more considering to try the Z30-800. It gives the same headspeed calculation as the Z50-800, but what differences will I se in my T-rex 600?

The Z50 is larger and more powerful (3000W class vs 2000W class). That means possibly cooler running at the same power, more power available at high load and possibly less efficient at low load. Given the price of the Z30 it seems very affordable to give it a try and see what happens. You won't have to modify your frame and will gain real world experience that can guide you should you ultimately decide you need more power down the road. Unless you can get confirmation that the OBL 43/11-30H is OK at 8s lipo (32,000rpm) or 10s lipo (40,000rpm) I wouldn't risk it. Same goes for any motor, I would want confirmation that it was rated for the target voltage(rpm). At least Neu are simple, they state the max rpm for each motor family.

[kgfly]

Updated table with additional motors and reference prices:

TRex 600 Motor comparison for 10s-15s A123 
=========================================== 

-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Model           KV   Max    US$   Max RPM/Volts/S  Body (LxD mm)  Weight (g)      Pinion estimate 
                     LiPo                                                       @10s  @13s  @15s 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Aln 600XL      1650    6    117   40,000/22/8       65 x 44         300           9      
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Neu 1515H/2YF  1100   14    299   60,000/55/19      69 x 40         360          13     10    9 
Neu 1521/1.5YF 1050   15    300   60,000/57/20      84 x 40         480          14     10    9 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
ZPw Z30        1110   10    115   42,000/37/13      61 x 43         276          13     10
ZPw Z30A-800    800    8    115   25,000/30/10      61 x 43         280          18
ZPw Z30A-1100  1110    6    115   25,000/37/10      61 x 43         280          13
OBL 43/11-30H  1050    6     96   25,000/22/8       62 x 43         280          14     10
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
ZPw Z50A-600    565   12    135   25,000/37/14      61 x 49         348          25     19
ZPw Z50A-800    780   10    135   25,000/37/13      61 x 49         348          18     14
ZPw Z50B-10S    780   10    135   30,000/37/13      61 x 49         340          18     14
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
OBL 49/08-50H   770   10    146   28,000/37/13      61 x 49         355          18     14
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 
Neu 1910H/1Y   1050    8    229   30,000/30/10      45 x 50         284          14      
Neu 1912H/1Y    825   10    249   30,000/36/13      71 x 50         395          17     13 
-------------  ----  ----  -----  ---------------  -------------  ----------  ---------------------- 

Notes: 
1) Align 600XL shown for comparison but is not suitable for 10s-15s
2) Align, ZPower and OBL max RPM estimated from the lipo cell rating (ie 6s=22V, 10s=37V)
3) Max S for A123 estimated from Max_Volts/2.8
4) Pinion estimates for 1800-2200rpm from: http://www.dacsa.net/heli/Calculator/default.aspx

[csell]

Kgfly

Thanks for your answer, Z30 class fits in the standard frame and is affordable to try. I hope 2000W class on 10s a123 has the same or more power than the Align 600's on 6s lipo?

Then only specification for ZPower with MAX PRM I found so far is this:

ZPower KV Pole (A) Ri --- Max RPM
Z50-600 566 10 1.6 28 85% 20000
Z50-800 780 10 3.5 19 --- 20000
Z30-600 591 10 1.53 46 --- 20000
Z30-800 798 8 1.85 35 86% 20000
Z30-1050 1110 8 2.91 20 82% 26000
Z30A-800 798 8 1.4 20 88% 26000
Z30A-1100 1111 8 2.31 21 86% 26000

I have done some consideration, if a T30 class motor on 10s a123 don't have the nessary power. I will then try to run it at 12s a123. The reasen I will chose 12s and not 13s is that balancer setups for 12s ( 6 x 2 ) is avaiable. If I go above 12s, I have to charge it as 2 separate packs.

Great table you did, When I now look at the Z30 class , I can se the Z30-800 is different, Is it still a candidate? TpPacks recomend it for 10s a123-M1 packs.

If I like to choose one of the other to compare it with, before making the final desition, I am not sure which one to choose.

Kgfly, I belive you have collected motor specifications for a while and now are using it to help me, can you please confirm that there is no pinion for 13s for the ZPw Z30A-1100. Is that option not possiable?

Which to consider of the avaiable Z30's in the 1100KV class?

I think orderering pinions: 11T, 12T 13T 14T is the rigth thing to do, that is the pinion people use on the T-rex 600.

With this in mind, is the Z30-800 or the Z30-1100 class the right thing to try?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Let's refresh on the power comparison:

6s 5000 20/30C = approx 2100/3150W
10s A123 2300 16/33/50C = approx 920/1900/2900W

600L, max 65A => ~1500W @ 6s lipo
Red Z30-1110, max 60A = ~1500W @ 10s A123
Blue Z30A-800, max output power 2000/2400W, max RPM 20000
Blue Z30A-1100, max output power 1450/1800W, max RPM 26000

(Z30A limits from here: http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...oducts_id=1542 )

Looks to me as if there is no question of the Z30/10s-A123 being as powerful as the 600L/6s-lipo combination. The information about the recommended number of cells and the max rpm are in conflict since that website recommends the Z30A-1100 for 8s lipo or 10s A123. However:

Z30A-800 (recommended for 6s lipo, 20000rpm limit)
6 x 3.5 x 798 = 17000rpm
8 x 3.5 x 798 = ~22000rpm
10 x 2.5 x 798 = ~20000rpm

Z30A-1100 (recommended for 8s-lipo/10s-A123, 26000rpm limit)
8 x 3.5 x 1110 = ~31000rpm
10 x 2.5 x 1110 = ~28000rpm

Choosing between 800 and 1100 should be driven by considering the max rpm compared to the max voltage you want to be able to run. You want to start on 10s-A123 with the option to run 12s-A123. Yet none of the motor specifications seem consistant enough to know if they are accurate and hence to determine what is safe

One would normally expect the lower-KV motor in the same family to be better suited to higher voltage operation which would suggest that the Z30-800 should be the choice

[kgfly]

Z30A-1100 on 13s-A123 would spin at approx 13 x 2.5 x 1110 = 36000rpm. That is *way* about the rated speed (at least from one source) so probably not a viable setup. If you did run that setup then MrMel's tells us that a 10t pinion would be about right.

[csell]

Hello.

Thanks kgfly for the power comparison, i liked it very much and I think you say it rigth, "The informations are in conflict".

But Tppacks, who are marketing the ZPower motors in USA had just posted this answer:

The Z30A is a bit small for 600 blades, in my opinion. It is about 43mm in diameter, so I'm not sure it will fit in any case, without the frame mods.

I will try to tell him that the 600L also is ø43mm.

Wonder if it is possiable to run the Blue Z30-800 on 12s a123, to improve the situation?

Regards Carsten

[csell]

Hello.

This is a comment to the above answer:

I agree – the Z30A-800 is good for 550mm blades but nothing larger. Use the Z50A-800 for 600/620mm blades. You could always run the Z30A and install a set of 550mm blades. As long as you keep the weight down 550mm helicopters are great for 3D or sport flying.

Is that a option to consider?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Ask Tppacks what the max rpm is for each of the motors or specifically if they will warranty operation on 10s A123 and 12s A123.

The Z30 seems to be in the same general class as the 600L/XL so although it might not be as wildly powerful as the 49mm motors, it looks to me as if it should fly the T600 at least as well as the 600L. Shorter blades would put less load on the motor but the heli will have a higher disk loading, making it more stable in wind but also a little less agile.

All these seem options you could explore.

[csell]

Hello.

Whyle I am waiting for the answer I am considering which of the Z30-800 will be best for my T-rex 600. The blue or the red?

Since last time I asked about balancers I changed the cell number to 12s a123.
What is the options to charge and balance the 12s a123 in a fast ( 20-30 min ), but also economical way?

Regards Carsten

[Mercuriell]

Since last time I asked about balancers I changed the cell number to 12s a123.
What is the options to charge and balance the 12s a123 in a fast ( 20-30 min ), but also economical way?

The estation 902 will charge A123 12S and if you want to balance them at the same time you could dual link 2 PB6 balancers - not sure how fast you could charge but would probably manage 2S (4.6A)

http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_list.asp?cid=10

I'd probably make up two 6S packs - charge at 2C and not worry about balancing

[kgfly]

More data comparing the various Z30 motors
The information about these motors is confusing and it is hard to know what is accurate. It is very hard to know what is accurate when different vendors make competing and contradictory claims about what the ZPower factory is supplying to them and others.

The red Z30:
http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_detail.asp?pid=ZP30
http://zpower.tw/ch/php/product.php?...z30series.html

The blue Z30A:
http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=10
http://www.rcdepot.com.tw/index.php/cPath/6_15
http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...ff4f60ae67d5cf

TT OBL Z30 variant:
http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...oducts_id=1354

The big issue is that the red Z30 on the wattsuprc site claims 6s-10s lipo but all other indications are that the Z30 motors are not rated to the rpm needed for 10s lipo (approx 10 x 3.5 x 1100 = 38500) and will overheat.

There is much discussion about the red vs blue ZPower motors here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609167

Some useful user datapoints here: http://logoheli.com/smf/index.php?topic=5241.30

Here is a useful extract:

no its the red ended Z30 motor (Z-POWER Z30-KV1110 With Fan)is that going to cause a problem?

Please advise should i change to the blue one if so do i get the 800 or the 1100kv?

==========================

Hmmmm. Well, of the two, the 800 would have been my choice. On 8s, the motor speed would be a much more comfortable 23000ish and, although the bogging would be a bit more, the temperatures would be much more manageable.

But you have the 1100 and so we need to look from here. If your supplier is happy to exchange the motor for an 800, this would probably be what I would do, but if that option is not available, then you can only try the one you have. But keep a carefull eye on the motor temperatures. If it cooks, you could try using the governor to slow it to about 25000rpm and use a 16 tooth pinion to get the headspeed back, but any temperature drop from the lower revs may well be cancelled out by the poorer efficiency. Not something I'd normally recommend.

Have a look through this:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&highlight=z30

=======================================

Could you explain why would the bogging a bit more with the 800? Thanks.

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It's basically down to the lower motor rpm. The lower revving motor must use a smaller gear ratio (bigger pinion) to get the desired headspeed. This means the torque load on it is higher. The lower revver produces more torque and so can over come this to some extent but not completely. As it has more turns on its coils, its resistance will be higher and this increases its sensitivity to torque changes, increasing the bogging.

Nothing is quite that simple though. Each time the core material in the coils is magnetised and then remagnetised in the opposite polarity, some energy is lost as heat. The faster the motor revs, the more times the magnetising/remagnetising cycle (the B/H loop) is gone round and the more heat is produced. This heating will eventually limit the rpm the motor can be used at.

So there are two opposing factors: if we rev too slow, the motor will not perform well due to the high torque loads and electrical losses in the windings. If we rev too fast, the core will get hot due to the magnetic losses, and the heat will find its way into the coils and raise the resistance, killing the torque and performance, and ultimately cooking the motor. The best setups are the ones that find the "sweet spot" in between. Finding this sweet spot can involve some trial and error. I've got a few motors lying around that are the result of the error half of that. You never see manufacturers' data saying things like "best run at xxxx rpm". Specifications for the max rpm of motors are often hard to find and reading forums like this and RCGroups is often the best way to find out what works and what doesn't.

In the case of the Z30, I have read that anything over 25,000rpm is "pushing the limits"**, so the 29-30,000 that an 1100 would want to do on 8s is going to be pushing the limits very hard indeed. The 800, which would do about 23,000 on 8s would seem a much safer choice and probably hit that "sweet spot".

** http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&highlight=z30

Together this all suggests that the blue Z30A-800 from ttppacks is a good choice for 8s lipo/10s A123. Pushing it to 12s A123 might be OK or might not

At 780kv:
8s lipo = 21,000 to 23,000rpm (at medium load: 21,500)
10s A123 = 19,000 to 23,000rpm (at medium load: 21,500)
12s A123 = 23,000 to 27,000rpm (at medium load: 25,740)

[csell]

Hello.

Gary Goodrum from Tppacks tells me:

I've run a Z30A-800 on a 12s LiPo setup, so it will certainly handle a 12s a123 setup just fine.


kgfly I realy liked your link:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609167

I read all of it, and also some of its links again, first time I se ZPowers webpage.

I think it more and more looks that I will try the blue Z30A-800 from ttppacks.

Which influence will changing the rotorblade size have. Anything else to change, if I end up with smaller rotorblades?


I have been looking on my chargers and what balancers to bay.
In the beging we discussed 8s a123, then 10s a123 and now 12s a123.
All charger charge with smaller current as voltage goes up, giving longer charge times. I think I will keep my 3 schulze. One is still in the post.

I don't think I need to ballance a123 cells every time I charge them. So I am considering to bay 1 set of balancers consisting of 2 pcs 6 cell balancers, giving me the possibility to active or pasive balance a 12s a123 pack once in a while.

I have been looking at:

Hyperion LBA10 NET

www.battlepack.com/rclipo/lba10.pdf

and

pb6 balancer:

http://truerc.net/TrueRCUSA/MANUAL/PB6_English.pdf

I think they are very similar and cost about the same when I add the cables needed.

Until now I have been using the FligthPower v-balancer, and don't know the 2 others.

Do any knows other balancer with posibilities to balance 12s?
Which can you recomend? do you know how good they are to balance a123 cells?

I also have to deceide on which type balancer connector to mount on the a123 packs, any ideas?


I must upgrade the firmware in one of my schulze chargers to charge a123 or try to bay:

A123 Dapoter: http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...e7685c92960631

Do you know anything about it?

Regards Carsten

[kgfly]

Which influence will changing the rotorblade size have. Anything else to change, if I end up with smaller rotorblades?

As far as I know, if you go down in size:
* 600 to 550 is about a 10% change in radius which is about a 20% reduction in area.
* Less lift => need higher headspeed for same performance
* Less drag => lower power consumption for the same headspeed
* Higher disk loading => Less ballooning in wind but also less agile
* Cheaper blades

I don't think I need to ballance a123 cells every time I charge them. So I am considering to bay 1 set of balancers consisting of 2 pcs 6 cell balancers, giving me the possibility to active or pasive balance a 12s a123 pack once in a while.

Quite right from all I have seen. Even just passive balancing once in a while should be fine. I have read of folks doing hundreds of flights without balancing. Others find the need to balance after a fews tens of flights.

I think either the LBA10(net) or PB6 should do the job just fine. Essentially you want a pair of 2s-6s balancers so that you can cable up your 10s packs with 2x5s balance plugs and the 12s packs with 2x6s. Choose your balancer first, then choose balance plugs to match. There is an excellent range of balance plug adapter boards for the PB6 that I like the look of, they mean a single adapter for all sized packs rather than a bag full of cables. See about half way down this page for examples of these adapter boards: http://wattsuprc.com.au/product_list.asp?cid=10

I think Century and or Thunder Tiger make some cheap wooden 550 blades, or maybe the new GAUI Hurricane550 blades. All under $30 I think. Perhaps you could get a pair just to try the feel on your T600 as it is today. That will let you know if you like them or not...found some TT ones here: http://zoomsheli.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=6392

A123 Dapoter: http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...e7685c92960631

Do you know anything about it?

There is excellent information information about the original LipoDapter product on the developer's site here explaining how it works: http://www.slkelectronics.com/lipodapter/index.htm

I know two people that have them. One has large eHelis and didn't like it. He got an eStation 902 instead and really likes it. The other flies his T450 on 4s A123 and got the LipoDapter instead of a new charger. He likes it.

From the description I think it will be a pain to use because:
* It adds another element to the system (ie pwr supply, charger,balancer + lipodapter)
* You have to reset it manually to A123 mode every time you use it. Forgetting to do so could lead to disaster if you are using a NiCd charge mode.
* You have to keep track of which charger needs it and which doesn't

The one you have found looks like a copycat, possibly dedicated to A123 so a bit less fiddly to use. Given the option, if it is not a big expense, I would get your charger upgraded so that all three are identical, interchangable and capable of A123 charging. Otherwise you could try the $20 Dapter and post a thread letting the rest of us know how well it works :wink:

[csell]

Hello.

I am in progress of ordering all the things I will need to change to a123.

I called www.powerhobby.com in New York yesterday, trying to bay a Castle Creations Phoenix 85HV to 155 USD, but they do not ship to Europe.

I ordered instead a Phoenix 85HV & USB combo from

http://b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod...434ea0f62d0d4b

normal price: $184.95, but on Sale, 5% extra off and free worlwide shipping until 7-12-07. That gives $175.70 including shipping, not bad for a combo.

And here 2 new links to a123 information. the first show the inside of a 123:

http://www.terrorhurtz.com/m1test/

and a another build instruction with pictures here:

http://www.terrorhurtz.com/a123/

Regards Carsten