Fixed Pitch 450 VOL 2…Featuring the Flybarless FP450

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

Thanks Bro
Well I had to go with Helidirect here in the States. They are selling the 2801 pro for $129.99 and with orders over a $100.00 you get free shipping. I was going to go with Miracle Mart, but with shipping the 2801 Pro would of ended up costing me $147.95 and it would of taking a couple of weeks to get.

Good deal.

[johnnycat500]

Here's a few pics. the tail servo is frame mounted.If need be I can boom mount the servo.

[AtTheCross]

hey jc500 just fro grins, turn your servo so that we can see the bottom of the servo (same orientation of the horn) as in this picture

[HELIHANKSTER]

Yep ATC is right
Johnny mount the servo on the other side so the back/bottom of the servo is facing us in your pictures. Make sure you keep the servo arm spine towards the back of the frame like you have it. ( See my picture, that‘s the way I have it) Then set the rudder channel in the radio to REV. This servo configuration was the only way I could get my tail to work right with the receiver mounted the way it is.

[johnnycat500]

thank you guys we are on the right track.I put the servo on the other side and put the rudder to rev in the tx.By playing around with it I have all 3 gyro's 100% rudder travel 100% did not touch the aile/elev travel.Each change I power down the rx and tx.On spool up the tail does not spin but give a little more throttle it starts to tilt. [aile] So what would my next step be.Turn down the aile/elevgyro a little at a time?

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by johnnycat500

thank you guys we are on the right track.I put the servo on the other side and put the rudder to rev in the tx.By playing around with it I have all 3 gyro's 100% rudder travel 100% did not touch the aile/elev travel.Each change I power down the rx and tx.On spool up the tail does not spin but give a little more throttle it starts to tilt. [aile] So what would my next step be.Turn down the aile/elevgyro a little at a time?

Glad you are progresing.
Please note the servo and RX placement is hardcoded in the firmware for the specific Walkera heli. So we have to immitate that or make the RX think everything is ok by experimenting with servo orientations. At this phase the channel reversing does nothing, its the RX that handles the servos.
When it comes for us to handle the heli then we move the sticks to match the right servo movement.

For example you first setup channel reversing and the servo are moving ok when you move the sticks. But you move the heli by hand and the servos are not moving as they should by your setup. This is cause starting with channel reversing is the wrong way with these RXs.
Also have in mind that there are differences from one brand servo to another brand servo, they may move the opposite way.

I start always with the RX and servos out of the heli, first with the Walkera heli
orientation and i move the RX to check the servo arm movement. This way i see if this orientation matches the current heli frame, if not the safer way is to put the non matching servo at the opposite side.
After that you can experiment with different RX orientations if it is needed as i did with my FP250 where the RX is upside down.

By tilt you mean it is shaking side to side? If yes then start lowering the AIL gyro gradualy till this is eliminated.
Also when there is front to back shaking you lower the ELEV servo.


Will this stabilizer work ok? i think it will bind in a forward flight. You may take a longer rod and Z shape it, or just bend it somewhat to make some clearance. Or better follow HH way if you have the parts.
It may also be the cause of some phenomena like what you are experiencing.

[johnnycat500]

Originally Posted by alexaglob

Glad you are progresing.
Please note the servo and RX placement is hardcoded in the firmware for the specific Walkera heli. So we have to immitate that or make the RX think everything is ok by experimenting with servo orientations. At this phase the channel reversing does nothing, its the RX that handles the servos.
When it comes for us to handle the heli then we move the sticks to match the right servo movement.

For example you first setup channel reversing and the servo are moving ok when you move the sticks. But you move the heli by hand and the servos are not moving as they should by your setup. This is cause starting with channel reversing is the wrong way with these RXs.
Also have in mind that there are differences from one brand servo to another brand servo, they may move the opposite way.

I start always with the RX and servos out of the heli, first with the Walkera heli
orientation and i move the RX to check the servo arm movement. This way i see if this orientation matches the current heli frame, if not the safer way is to put the non matching servo at the opposite side.
After that you can experiment with different RX orientations if it is needed as i did with my FP250 where the RX is upside down.

By tilt you mean it is shaking side to side? If yes then start lowering the AIL gyro gradualy till this is eliminated.
Also when there is front to back shaking you lower the ELEV servo.


Will this stabilizer work ok? i think it will bind in a forward flight. You may take a longer rod and Z shape it, or just bend it somewhat to make some clearance. Or better follow HH way if you have the parts.
It may also be the cause of some phenomena like what you are experiencing.

Alex thanks for the great info.I don't quite understand to last statement.Is it that the tail servo rod will bind? I can mount the servo on the boom.By tilt I mean as rotor speed increases the rx is giving some left aile causing the heli to fall over on it's side.I turned off both switches to adj and off, to level the swash then turned the switches back after my adjustment.I will start by slowly lowering the aile gyro a little at a time to see if that helps. When I adjust the gyro's I know the rx has to be powered down but do I need to put the switches back to adj and off each time I want to adjust one of the gyro's.....thanks

[HELIHANKSTER]

Hey Johnny, I would leave the Aile and Elve gyros set at 100% for now. Maybe Alex might need to correct me, but if my understanding is right the Aile and Elev gyro gain pots are used to adjust the sensitivity of the auto stabilizing feature. If the helicopter is tilting on take off, I would double check that the swash plate is level after the receiver initializes with the receiver in WK mode. As a side note, I also notice that after the receiver initializes the swash doesn’t completely self level at first while setting on the bench. I have to move the steering stick in a quick circular motion for a second then let off for the swash to become level. This might just be my receiver, but I thought I would add it.

[HELIHANKSTER]

I think Alex is talking about how you have your adjustment lever setup as a mixing/base arm to the swash plate. If all is good with the swash plate (level in work mode), You could try removing the extra link you added to the adjustment lever and give it a try with just the one swivel link. There could be some kind of binding with the linkage that might be causing the rotor disk to tilt.

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by johnnycat500

Alex thanks for the great info.I don't quite understand to last statement.Is it that the tail servo rod will bind? I can mount the servo on the boom.By tilt I mean as rotor speed increases the rx is giving some left aile causing the heli to fall over on it's side.I turned off both switches to adj and off, to level the swash then turned the switches back after my adjustment.I will start by slowly lowering the aile gyro a little at a time to see if that helps. When I adjust the gyro's I know the rx has to be powered down but do I need to put the switches back to adj and off each time I want to adjust one of the gyro's.....thanks

The switches must be set OFF and ADJ only when we initialy are centering the servos, after that they must be ON and WK.
The switches disable the gyros just for us to find the servo centers.

When you are adjusting the gyros the RX must be powered off, there is no need for the TX to be turned also off, after RX is powered on again it will bind directly.
At the current gyro level, just give some trimming on the AIL stick to give some opposite move of the servo, say if the heli goes left give it some right trimming etc. After you bring it in a flyable condition see how much trimming you have, if it is just slight then no need for more actions. If it is more than say 5% then try a full turn of the AIL servo/swash link to make it longer if it tilts left or shorter if the heli tilts right (assuming the AIL servo is mount on the left side).
Zero the trims and start the procedure again until you have slight trim or not at all.
Similar is for ELEV.

You may need to give trimming again when you are changing gyro level.

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

I think Alex is talking about how you have your adjustment lever setup as a mixing/base arm to the swash plate. If all is good with the swash plate (level in work mode), You could try removing the extra link you added to the adjustment lever and give it a try with just the one swivel link. There could be some kind of binding with the linkage that might be causing the rotor disk to tilt.

Yes i talk about that link, it seems ready to touch the swashplate ear at the position of the ELEV gyro if the swashplate lean forward.

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

Hey Johnny, I would leave the Aile and Elve gyros set at 100% for now. Maybe Alex might need to correct me, but if my understanding is right the Aile and Elev gyro gain pots are used to adjust the sensitivity of the auto stabilizing feature. If the helicopter is tilting on take off, I would double check that the swash plate is level after the receiver initializes with the receiver in WK mode. As a side note, I also notice that after the receiver initializes the swash doesn’t completely self level at first while setting on the bench. I have to move the steering stick in a quick circular motion for a second then let off for the swash to become level. This might just be my receiver, but I thought I would add it.

Even after leveling the swash we may need to trim the servo/swash links as there is no third servo to keep the swashplate level while in flight. I've seen at the V200D01 thread in rcgroups that the guys there are using custom sleeves under the swashplate(maybe also above) to keep them level and they have very good results. But V200 dont have adjustment lever as the funcopter head.

[HELIHANKSTER]

Mmmm…Using a sleeve above and below the swash does sound like a good way to get what little play there is out of the swash plate...that's good info to know

Yep trimming may be needed for fine tuning once the helicopter is in the air. I personally do not use trim, I do all my fine tuning mechanically. It’s a habit I pick up back in the day when I was using one non-programmable transmitter to fly multiple helicopters. The inherit play of a 90degree two servo swash is still there in my FBL setup even with the two sets of arms, but fortunately the play doesn’t seem to affect flight performance. The only issue I have, which really isn’t an issue is my cyclic servos will not center their self right after the receiver initializes. It’s no biggy…all I have to do to get the swash level is give the steering stick a quick giggle and all is fine. I just found this odd and was wondering if I was alone on this one or if it was a common occurrence.

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

Mmmm…Using a sleeve above and below the swash does sound like a good way to get what little play there is out of the swash plate...that's good info to know

Yep trimming may be needed for fine tuning once the helicopter is in the air. I personally do not use trim, I do all my fine tuning mechanically. It’s a habit I pick up back in the day when I was using one non-programmable transmitter to fly multiple helicopters. The inherit play of a 90degree two servo swash is still there in my FBL setup even with the two sets of arms, but fortunately the play doesn’t seem to affect flight performance. The only issue I have, which really isn’t an issue is my cyclic servos will not center their self right after the receiver initializes. It’s no biggy…all I have to do to get the swash level is give the steering stick a quick giggle and all is fine. I just found this odd and was wondering if I was alone on this one or if it was a common occurrence.

I'm with you with mechanical setup, just using trimming to find if and how much i haveto turn the links, then i reset the trims to neutral.
Also with 2801PRO we can use subtrims to make last corrections.

Yep the servos will not perfectly center but that's not a problem the RX will make the corrections needed. Just needs to be initialized to a level surface for some seconds after binding. Also with subtrims on 2801 you can center them better.

BTW, 2801PRO dont offers many options when in 2401 (4ch) mode, but we can switch to 2801 mode make changes and then switch back to 2401 mode. For speeding up this there are some hotkeys that will call those features frequently needed even in 2401 mode.

[johnnycat500]

@ Alex and HH You guys are all over it.I checked the swash for level all ok.Trims at 50% Servo horns level ,so all is good mechanically. Now this is where you guys know your stuff;That linkage was binding big time.The only reason I did it that way was because I did not want to cut up the parts until its going to work for me.I will be doing it the right way, the HH way. :-] It is to windy to try it outside today but I did give it a go in the living room.It lifts off level but the tail will swing around.So is my next step to to bring the tail gyro adjustment down little by little? I did hear back from wow hobbies and they said to send it back only if I am using the stock tail servo and they will check it out.They gave me a return #.I am go you email them back in a few days to tell them the guys on the forum got it working for me. So my next ? would it be wise just to get the stock servo for this heli and use it. I only play with this heli a little each day because I am heavy into the cnc drawing of the direct drive main motor dd 500 fp.I have about 10 hours into it and it's getting close.Can't wait to start it's build thread right next to this one.

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by johnnycat500

@ Alex and HH You guys are all over it.I checked the swash for level all ok.Trims at 50% Servo horns level ,so all is good mechanically. Now this is where you guys know your stuff;That linkage was binding big time.The only reason I did it that way was because I did not want to cut up the parts until its going to work for me.I will be doing it the right way, the HH way. :-] It is to windy to try it outside today but I did give it a go in the living room.It lifts off level but the tail will swing around.So is my next step to to bring the tail gyro adjustment down little by little? I did hear back from wow hobbies and they said to send it back only if I am using the stock tail servo and they will check it out.They gave me a return #.I am go you email them back in a few days to tell them the guys on the forum got it working for me. So my next ? would it be wise just to get the stock servo for this heli and use it. I only play with this heli a little each day because I am heavy into the cnc drawing of the direct drive main motor dd 500 fp.I have about 10 hours into it and it's getting close.Can't wait to start it's build thread right next to this one.

These are the specs of CB180Z rudder servo
Rudder Servo: wk-7601 weight 6.0g / speed 0.08 sec/60°(4.8V)torque 1.0kgf.cm /dimension 21.5*11.8*21.7mm it will be very small for your bird.
What are the specs of yours?

At my 250FP i use this servo from 4F200
http://www.servodatabase.com/servo/walkera/wk-0902h
and holds the tail perfectly, i'm thinking to test it at my HK250GT to see how it holds with more headspeed.

They are both 0.08sec speed at 4.8V but the 4f200 one is 2kg torque, so i think you need something similar but with the required torque for your bird. Maybe the V450 or V500 rudder servo, but in general Walkera servos are not so cheap.
http://www.helipal.com/hm-v450d01-z-...-wk-2601h.html
here is much cheaper
http://www.rcpal.com/walkera-tail-se...z15-p-933.html

For now you can try lowering the rudder sensitivity and see how it reacts.

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by alexaglob

I'm with you with mechanical setup, just using trimming to find if and how much i haveto turn the links, then i reset the trims to neutral.
Also with 2801PRO we can use subtrims to make last corrections.

Yep the servos will not perfectly center but that's not a problem the RX will make the corrections needed. Just needs to be initialized to a level surface for some seconds after binding. Also with subtrims on 2801 you can center them better.

BTW, 2801PRO dont offers many options when in 2401 (4ch) mode, but we can switch to 2801 mode make changes and then switch back to 2401 mode. For speeding up this there are some hotkeys that will call those features frequently needed even in 2401 mode.

Cool, so it‘s normal…I guess I would of found out if it was just this particular 3axis receiver or not. I’m going to convert my original FP450 over to flybarless using a second RX2437S that I have…so would have confirmed this strange behavior once it was up and running. I have wanted to do a 450 size scale bird for a long time and I think my second FBL FP450 will be the perfect helicopters to do my first real scale build on. The fuselage I will using is one of those cheap $50.00 md500 fuse from HK…sweetness.

Hurray received my 2801 Pro yesterday. Didn’t have a lot of time too really look over it, but hopefully its money well spend…Yeah baby! The only complaint so far would be the manual that came with the transmitter…it’s in Chinese! What’s up with that, my manual that came with my WK-2603 was in English.


Alex are you using an aftermarket battery pack in your 2801, if so which one? I using the Rhino 2630mah 3s 11.1v low discharge pack in both my HK 7x and Turnigy 9x transmitters with no problems.

[HELIHANKSTER]

Originally Posted by johnnycat500

@ Alex and HH You guys are all over it.I checked the swash for level all ok.Trims at 50% Servo horns level ,so all is good mechanically. Now this is where you guys know your stuff;That linkage was binding big time.The only reason I did it that way was because I did not want to cut up the parts until its going to work for me.I will be doing it the right way, the HH way. :-] It is to windy to try it outside today but I did give it a go in the living room.It lifts off level but the tail will swing around.So is my next step to to bring the tail gyro adjustment down little by little? I did hear back from wow hobbies and they said to send it back only if I am using the stock tail servo and they will check it out.They gave me a return #.I am go you email them back in a few days to tell them the guys on the forum got it working for me. So my next ? would it be wise just to get the stock servo for this heli and use it. I only play with this heli a little each day because I am heavy into the cnc drawing of the direct drive main motor dd 500 fp.I have about 10 hours into it and it's getting close.Can't wait to start it's build thread right next to this one.

Sweetness Johnny, glad to hear it wasn’t a bad receiver

When you say the tail swings around. Is the tail slowly drifting or kicking hard when you give some throttle? Is the swing with or against torque?

Alex is right; the stock CB180z tail servo doesn’t have enough torque for a 450 size helicopter. It might work okay at first, but would more than likely burn out after a few flights. I’m using the HK15158A digital BB/cordless servo on my tail and it seems to work well with the RX2437S receiver, so this leads me to think most digital servos should work.

Well hurry up, you’re not the only one that can’t wait for the FP500 thread to start up next to this one.

[hydmech]

Dont mean to derail the thread but I just got my 300th flight on my fp 450 that is about 50 hours in the air. I have kept a log of what it cost me in parts and crashes It has been a grand total of $23.00 . I cant say enough good about this bird.......It just flat slams ham

[alexaglob]

Originally Posted by HELIHANKSTER

Cool, so it‘s normal…I guess I would of found out if it was just this particular 3axis receiver or not. I’m going to convert my original FP450 over to flybarless using a second RX2437S that I have…so would have confirmed this strange behavior once it was up and running. I have wanted to do a 450 size scale bird for a long time and I think my second FBL FP450 will be the perfect helicopters to do my first real scale build on. The fuselage I will using is one of those cheap $50.00 md500 fuse from HK…sweetness.

Hurray received my 2801 Pro yesterday. Didn’t have a lot of time too really look over it, but hopefully its money well spend…Yeah baby! The only complaint so far would be the manual that came with the transmitter…it’s in Chinese! What’s up with that, my manual that came with my WK-2603 was in English.


Alex are you using an aftermarket battery pack in your 2801, if so which one? I using the Rhino 2630mah 3s 11.1v low discharge pack in both my HK 7x and Turnigy 9x transmitters with no problems.

Good, i think you'll like 2801PRO, no comparison with 2603.
Here are two links for the manual
http://www.walkera-heli.com/manual/W2801PRO_expe.pdf
http://www.rtf-heli.com/files/WK2801_PRO_TXManual.pdf

I'm using a 2200mah 3s bought from ebay, if yours fits inside then no problem. Just be carefull when you unplug the bat for charging in order to dont damage the plug. Or you can use an extension for the 3s balance plug and night charge it with one of those cheap chargers that can balance charge only but the balance plug.
If the bat leaves some space you can even make a JST Y connector for power plug and charge it with a good balance charger the right way. I'm thinking to do that.

Remember when you reset a model or start with a new model to check the STICK page, it always start with MODE1 stick, just change it to MODE2 which i suppose you use.
I forgot it with the RX2610V of the HK250GT as i was excited to start using it and for half an hour i couldnt understand why AIL was at left stick

Agree, the FP450 will be a cool scale heli with MD500, i like that fuselage.