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Old 05-01-2016, 10:36 PM   #1
Epoweredrc
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Unhappy Hard deck, is the only way never to crash?

Well, i understand how harddeck works, and well after today i guess im convinced harddeck is the only way not to ever have a crash. cause with it on. the heli can not go below that certain point correct? upright, inverted, sideways any way possible it will always upright and go up from that point right?

my dad is about to be 71 yrs old and i enjoy flying with him but he thinks left and gives right, watched him crash his blade 230s today, and im thinking how do you crash when you have bail out? well the answer is when you FORGET to hit the bail out switch. so what units have hard deck? i know FMA was the first to bring out hard deck but my issue with that one was it was set at like 50 feet. i think some others you can set maybe 30 feet that be lot better.

thanks.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:02 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
Well, i understand how harddeck works, and well after today i guess im convinced harddeck is the only way not to ever have a crash. cause with it on. the heli can not go below that certain point correct? upright, inverted, sideways any way possible it will always upright and go up from that point right?

my dad is about to be 71 yrs old and i enjoy flying with him but he thinks left and gives right, watched him crash his blade 230s today, and im thinking how do you crash when you have bail out? well the answer is when you FORGET to hit the bail out switch. so what units have hard deck? i know FMA was the first to bring out hard deck but my issue with that one was it was set at like 50 feet. i think some others you can set maybe 30 feet that be lot better.

thanks.
You can still run into stuff above the hard deck (trees, buildings) or fly out of range (loss of signal should be motor off), but hard deck is a good way to reduce crashes.

Add an altimeter (variometer) to a rescue FBL system and use an OpenTX transmitter to run the feedback loop from the telemetry. This is a cheap way to get harddeck.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:04 PM   #3
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You can still run into stuff above the hard deck (trees, buildings) or fly out of range (loss of signal should be motor off), but hard deck is a good way to reduce crashes.

Add an altimeter (variometer) to a rescue FBL system and use an OpenTX transmitter to run the feedback loop from the telemetry. This is a cheap way to get harddeck.
no trees where we fly just open field. okay couple trees way off. but yeah... now the issue before with hard deck was top of runway is level but then it slopes off on both sides. is the one your talking about critical to terrain like this?
how would you add a variometer to a fbl system?
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:07 PM   #4
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The Skookum BE with GPS is the only FBL with a hard deck... At $900.

Those of us who own: any fbl with self level or bail out AND
9XR Pro - $65 and frsky module $30
Or
Taranis ($200-$300)
Or
Jeti ($850 and up)

You just add an altimeter and a simple function to enable bailout if altitude < X feet... Done.

No JR, Graupner, Futaba, (even the $3000 one) Spektrum or other TX is capable of it at all.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:10 PM   #5
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no trees where we fly just open field. okay couple trees way off. but yeah... now the issue before with hard deck was top of runway is level but then it slopes off on both sides. is the one your talking about critical to terrain like this?
how would you add a variometer to a fbl system?
You kinda don't. You add it to the RX... But you need to rely on the TX to take the reading in and send the signal to do the bailout.

As far as the FBL goes, it is either in there or it isn't...
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves View Post
The Skookum BE with GPS is the only FBL with a hard deck... At $900.

Those of us who own: any fbl with self level or bail out AND
9XR Pro - $65 and frsky module $30
Or
Taranis ($200-$300)
Or
Jeti ($850 and up)

You just add an altimeter and a simple function to enable bailout if altitude < X feet... Done.

No JR, Graupner, Futaba, (even the $3000 one) Spektrum or other TX is capable of it at all.
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You kinda don't. You add it to the RX... But you need to rely on the TX to take the reading in and send the signal to do the bailout.

As far as the FBL goes, it is either in there or it isn't...
is that how you did the one in your youtube? you had one showing hard deck forget what heli and don't think it said what one it was.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:25 PM   #7
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is that how you did the one in your youtube? you had one showing hard deck forget what heli and don't think it said what one it was.
Yeah. If we fly together you can fly that Chase...

It's a $20 RX and a $20 Vario...

Then a simple "custom switch" for altitude under 30 feet, and a mix that does bailout if the custom switch is on.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:36 PM   #8
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Maybe the solution to crashing helicopters is a foamy plank for your dad? Apprentice S? Maybe work up to the new Eflite 1200 mm T-28 plus buddy box? Don't laugh.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves View Post
Yeah. If we fly together you can fly that Chase...

It's a $20 RX and a $20 Vario...

Then a simple "custom switch" for altitude under 30 feet, and a mix that does bailout if the custom switch is on.
Oh wow. seems cheap enough

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Maybe the solution to crashing helicopters is a foamy plank for your dad? Apprentice S? Maybe work up to the new Eflite 1200 mm T-28 plus buddy box? Don't laugh.
My dad has been flying planes since the 60's he can fly planes fine.He taught me when i was 9 in 1989. its helicopters has issues with cause there not always moving forward on there own . i really don't want him to get pissed again and not pick up a tx for a yr or two.
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Old 05-02-2016, 02:47 AM   #10
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^^ I still don't see it as a great solution, because there's the take-off/landing phase, in-flight failures, and the potential for the heli to drift too close (including overhead) without geofencing.
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves View Post
The Skookum BE with GPS is the only FBL with a hard deck... At $900.

Those of us who own: any fbl with self level or bail out AND
9XR Pro - $65 and frsky module $30
Or
Taranis ($200-$300)
Or
Jeti ($850 and up)

You just add an altimeter and a simple function to enable bailout if altitude < X feet... Done.

No JR, Graupner, Futaba, (even the $3000 one) Spektrum or other TX is capable of it at all.
Actually, if I wanted a hard deck (for any system) I could probably build that in a day using an Arduino and an altimeter. Set deck using a switch. When altitude is below or trajectory will land you below engage rescue on a pin out of the arudino -> rescue FBL port in.

But I have so many other projects going, and I don't want a hard deck. Perhaps someone else could build this?
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:27 AM   #12
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You cant base a hard deck on a baro and expect it to do anything for people that are doing much more than very slow forward flight and hovering. We have way to much dynamic<->static pressure conversion in FF flight (especially when you add piro/slips/fast backwards flight), so you end up with false positives.

You end up having to build an IMU with trajectory planning, and that gets complicated- where you have to also determine what the capabilities are for maneuvering. Otherwise, you just end up with a 50ft hard deck when you wanted 20ft, and it is pointless. And a lovely byproduct is a bailout trigger on an actual power loss/autorotation, which does nothing good for rotor energy. Yea, you can disable that with TH if you have time above the hard deck to engage it, but if you can do that, you can manually trigger bailout in other flight conditions…

There is a reason why FBLs don’t include a $2 baro chip onboard.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:39 AM   #13
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I believe the Skookum is your only effective off-the-shelf solution or a DIY job like Gunny's if you have the right Tx.

But it's only going to be effective if your dad doesn't mind flying all the time well above 30 ft. For me that would spoil the experience too much and I don't believe there is any hard deck that works well enough any lower. But I could be wrong there?

Is your dad willing to spend time on a sim? Practice (including practice activating rescue) is what really avoids crashes.
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:27 AM   #14
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You cant base a hard deck on a baro and expect it to do anything for people that are doing much more than very slow forward flight and hovering. We have way to much dynamicstatic pressure conversion in FF flight (especially when you add piro/slips/fast backwards flight), so you end up with false positives.

You end up having to build an IMU with trajectory planning, and that gets complicated- where you have to also determine what the capabilities are for maneuvering. Otherwise, you just end up with a 50ft hard deck when you wanted 20ft, and it is pointless. And a lovely byproduct is a bailout trigger on an actual power loss/autorotation, which does nothing good for rotor energy. Yea, you can disable that with TH if you have time above the hard deck to engage it, but if you can do that, you can manually trigger bailout in other flight conditions…

There is a reason why FBLs don’t include a $2 baro chip onboard.
Isn't this whay gunny is doing. According to him it works for what he's doing.

We are talking about wrong aileron when hovering nose in here, and stuff like that. Not anything advanced when it comes to flying.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:33 AM   #15
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I believe the Skookum is your only effective off-the-shelf solution or a DIY job like Gunny's if you have the right Tx.

But it's only going to be effective if your dad doesn't mind flying all the time well above 30 ft. For me that would spoil the experience too much and I don't believe there is any hard deck that works well enough any lower. But I could be wrong there?

Is your dad willing to spend time on a sim? Practice (including practice activating rescue) is what really avoids crashes.
He has sim. My dad flew nitro helis in the 90s, but back then Noone did much with helis he could fly in fff and piros. About it..now about 6 yrs ago I got him into electric helis he has ton of flights on multiple helicopters blade 400 was his first.then cp pro ,mcpx's(3),MSR ,mcpx bl's(3), (2)130x's,we converted his 400 to fbl,he then picked up (2) bnf blade 450x's,blade 300 cfx,trex 450 now he has my old blade 230s.
He knows how to fly, can even do front flips backflips, pitch pumps, just sometimes it either gets to far away to know what it's doing, or gets in the sun or just gives wrong input. He keeps looking at the sprit fbl unit but not sure he can set it up guess I need watch some videos to see if I could help get it set up if he gets one everything is flybarless. and the mcpx's are converted brushless. he does have one i think new in the box we hovered once to test bone stock mcpx v1


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Old 05-02-2016, 10:56 AM   #16
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Oh wow. seems cheap enough


My dad has been flying planes since the 60's he can fly planes fine.He taught me when i was 9 in 1989. its helicopters has issues with cause there not always moving forward on there own . i really don't want him to get pissed again and not pick up a tx for a yr or two.
-My dad was a long time rc plank flier and learned helis in his 80's. He learned to hover on an Esky FP2 (he had a couple of them). I can't tell you how many helis I had him ship up to me from FLA to VT so I could fix them and send them back to him. After a certain point with his age/health he couldn't manage flying planks any longer and r/c helis kept him in the hobby. He had two Blade FP2s, 2 MSRs and a couple Blade 120 SRs, a belt CP, a walkera 4#3b and a MSRx. Enjoy the time with your dad and good for you helping him to stay in the air!
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:22 PM   #17
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He has sim. My dad flew nitro helis in the 90s, but back then Noone did much with helis he could fly in fff and piros. About it..now about 6 yrs ago I got him into electric helis he has ton of flights on multiple helicopters blade 400 was his first.then cp pro ,mcpx's(3),mcpx bl's(3), 130x,we converted his 400 to fbl,he then picked up (2) bnf blade 450x's,blade 300 cfx,trex 450 now he has my old blade 230s.
He knows how to fly, can even do front flips backflips, pitch pumps, just sometimes it either gets to far away to know what it's doing, or gets in the sun or just gives wrong input. He keeps looking at the sprit fbl unit but not sure he can set it up guess I need watch some videos to see if I could help get it set up if he gets one

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Your Dad is how old?

Hmm... How would you feel about me building him a Heli he could fly?

Talking possibly fulltime self level, large enough to see well... and Capable of a Hard Deck...

Yep... I'm gonna do it... Done deal... Too bad... Now what batteries does your 500 use? (Will try for similar.)
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:29 PM   #18
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There comes a point where your dad will just have to accept that his reflexes/eye hand coordination aren't what they used to be.
I'm going through similar with my dad at 85. He still flies heli's and planks pretty well, but has had to limit how he flies both.
He doesn't get frustrated, but does crash ALOT! Fortunately, he loves building/rebuilding more than flying.
He also had to convert from thumbing to pinching in his late 70's as his hands were getting shaky and pinching helped with that.
Great to see you keeping your dad involved with RC.
I love the time spent with my dad talking heli's or anything RC. Wouldn't trade it for the world.
Keeps his mind in the game and sharp.
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Old 05-02-2016, 01:02 PM   #19
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Yeah well my dad hates working on them, so I try to do repair work when I can. He feels every crash takes him 3 steps back, he was doing great couple yrs ago then got to far away and put in his perfect flying blade 300 cfx with aluminum everything. After that we never got it to fly the same. Couldn't get parts for head was on it just all kinda issues after that he just quit flying went to another hobby.. I traded him my 230s a few weeks ago to get him back into it. But I think he should be flying larger birds.


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Old 05-02-2016, 01:19 PM   #20
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Will see what I can cook up...

He'll get my own "legendary" Taranis TX... (The one that drove me to the Jeti eventually...)

I can set it up to fly in fulltime self level, or hard deck, or any number of other setups.
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